Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,662
# 21
03-11-2013, 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
/snip
Yup Op because of the reason stated by others. Buffing sci BO abilities to perform more like the mines would be a move in the right direction.

Alternatively, make it so that engie cpts can cast something to counter the effects. They need a reason for being on a team, which is why I quoted Naz.

Last time i saw Pandas, you were running without eng healers, and have done so for some time. So please keep that in mind.
Joined 06.10
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# 22
03-11-2013, 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeuxidemus001 View Post
In my experienc though usually 3 out of 5 players don't have power insulators in their spec so it appears very OP which compared to tachyon beam and CPB...

You're premise is completely flawed.

You can have well over 100 in PI and your shields will still melt when you are hit with these.

It's not even in the same arena as Tachyon and CPB - both of which have considerable cost opportunity and use limitations.

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# 23
03-11-2013, 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
The effectiveness of this weapon is still under review, but is being scrutinized carefully alongside the effectiveness of similar Science powers: Tachyon Beam, Charged Particle Burst, and to a lesser extent TSS:Shields.

The basic premise at the moment is that most players consider the aforementioned boff abilities to vastly underperform, while a similarly-constructed weapon item is being called out as overperforming. And so, before we can consider changing either, we need to come to a thorough understanding of the differences between the two, and the circumstances separating what is perceived as "junk" to what is perceived as "OP" even when both have almost identical effects.

I'm also curious, if I can poll you guys quickly... the Tachyon Mine launcher has been around for a year or so now. Why is it only now being frequently mentioned as a balance issue? Were they always OP, and just nobody knew or understood their power? Or was there a vital change to the overall structure of ships and their associated builds, that threw these into the forefront of effectiveness? I can tell you with certainty that their mechanics haven't been touched or tweaked since the Mine Revamp, which was several months ago, and before that there were nearly no changes since they first went live. So... why is it only now becoming an issue, do you think?
i think its a mater of the cost involved, and for a long time the right people weren't using it, us the minmaxers.

the sci skills tach beam and CPB debuffing resistance seems like a no brainier addition, the fleet elite shields can still fairly easily hit the resistance cap, especially when they are in a defensive mode. you cant nuke away the resistance on that shield ether, just skills like EPtS. the elite shield is still way to good, its nearly not possible to kill someone without all shield bypassing methods, which are certainly non standard niche builds more then anything, and can be pretty easily countered with any amount of cross healing.


tet glider works well if you spend like 3 sci consoles on flow cap consoles. its applied per shot though and when you pair it with CRF it works very well. the sci skills are just 1 big application, that is nerfed in half by 99 PI, or a 10 second over time skill that does to little to notice, and probably does little more then stall regeneration a bit.

is the next project after FAW going to be that update gecko mentioned with shield drain? so it shows up in the log and all that? that would be extreamly nice to have, and if you can fix faw, surely that would be no problem!

all the PI guarded skills, balance them assuming everyone has 99 skill points in them. that should be the base line, not 0 points in them. less then 99 should mean your more susceptible to something. from testing, it looks like 99 skill in something cuts listed effectiveness in half, and 200 in PI, which seems to be a resist cap, reduces affect by ~66%. so go ahead and double the output of CPB and tach beam, and add a shield resistance debuff as well


an an unrelated note, TR basically doesn't do anything, robing you of power for only a single second, with only 2 stacks of that. after a second, your power transfer rate undoes the drain. around TR, you just see power levels flicker with up to -3 drain. the skill does absolutely nothing to players. instead of a drain for only 1 second, make it drain per stack for 5 seconds, and let it stack as many as it can, depending on how close you are too it. like 6 stacks in the center, and only 2 farther away. it would still take a lot of effort to keep someone near it, as it has basically no pull at all.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
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# 24
03-11-2013, 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post

I'm also curious, if I can poll you guys quickly... the Tachyon Mine launcher has been around for a year or so now. Why is it only now being frequently mentioned as a balance issue? Were they always OP, and just nobody knew or understood their power? Or was there a vital change to the overall structure of ships and their associated builds, that threw these into the forefront of effectiveness? I can tell you with certainty that their mechanics haven't been touched or tweaked since the Mine Revamp, which was several months ago, and before that there were nearly no changes since they first went live. So... why is it only now becoming an issue, do you think?
It takes along time for a community to reach a consensus about what is op and what is up. Individual players not so much but they can be drowned out by those who do not have as deep of an understanding of the game mechanics or what have you.

As to why they are OP that is simple. They provide a penalty to shield resist, that creates a multiplier that increases the damage against the target. By contrast the drains from Sci Boffs are just a strait up damage or a plus damage against the target. Multipliers are always much more likely to be over powered than a simple plus. You also see this in STFs when a team is packing several copies of attack pattern beta the damage goes threw the roof. On that note the only reason that is not an issue in PvP is the dominance of Tactical Team which clears the APB debuff. If 4 out of 5 did not slot Tac Team I promise you APB would be considered over powered in a heart beat.
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Join Date: Nov 2012
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# 25
03-11-2013, 03:27 PM
my 2 cents, I never PvP, however I own a D'Kora with a full Ferengi set since the release of that lockbox, the mines have been nice and OP for about 6-7 months, then they became what I call CRAPPY (remember I am talking PvE) probably during the so called mine revamp.

In PvE when they were OP according to me, you could fly close to that Tac cube at the beginning of KASE, drop the mines (without any ability) and the shields of the cube (all faces) would go poof, completely disappear.

Now, they are close to useless, they hardly reduce the shields of that same cube in a noticeable manner.

Just my 2 cents, and I am not the only one who used them and find them useless now in PVE, I know at least 2 people in my Fleet.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 26
03-11-2013, 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
The effectiveness of this weapon is still under review, but is being scrutinized carefully alongside the effectiveness of similar Science powers: Tachyon Beam, Charged Particle Burst, and to a lesser extent TSS:Shields.

The basic premise at the moment is that most players consider the aforementioned boff abilities to vastly underperform, while a similarly-constructed weapon item is being called out as overperforming. And so, before we can consider changing either, we need to come to a thorough understanding of the differences between the two, and the circumstances separating what is perceived as "junk" to what is perceived as "OP" even when both have almost identical effects.

I'm also curious, if I can poll you guys quickly... the Tachyon Mine launcher has been around for a year or so now. Why is it only now being frequently mentioned as a balance issue? Were they always OP, and just nobody knew or understood their power? Or was there a vital change to the overall structure of ships and their associated builds, that threw these into the forefront of effectiveness? I can tell you with certainty that their mechanics haven't been touched or tweaked since the Mine Revamp, which was several months ago, and before that there were nearly no changes since they first went live. So... why is it only now becoming an issue, do you think?
The PvP community is very small. The mines themselves were (and are) expensive: they're priced at 200 a pop, character-bound, with a direct dil-sink of a currency being the only means of purchase. There are cheaper and more readily-available items which I still see rarely and find difficult to access for test purposes.

The quality of the tooltip is also quite poor, meaning it's still not clear what the mines are supposed to do, and we've only figured it out for the most part through stress-testing. All of these factors in tandem mean that the mines had a low adoption rate until the mine revamp, which, while perhaps not affecting the tach mine launchers themselves, led to a renaissance in mine use and a renewed interest in the various flavors. It's quite possible that some players already knew and warned us about the strength of the mines, but couldn't find an audience since there's typically so much going on at once when it comes to the discussion on balance in the first place.

I've posted my thoughts about shield drain elsewhere. The tach mines -- last time I encountered them, it's possible they've changed since -- were even worse in that they'd apply a regen debuff that'd send your innate regen into negative values. This meant that while the debuff was active you had to manually "climb" your way out of the negatives just to get a sliver of shields back at all. On many ship types this can be phenomenally difficult.

I think on a larger scale shield drain is a no-go... it's a prettified way of dealing damage, and the difficulties balancing drain explain perfectly the genesis of these Lobi mines, a weapon that's far, far too effective at its intended purpose.

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Last edited by shimmerless; 03-11-2013 at 04:01 PM.
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Posts: 1,150
# 27
03-11-2013, 04:45 PM
I know that Shield Drains report poorly to the combat log, and in our tooltips unless manually overridden, so it's easy to see how some misconceptions could become accepted as truths.

But let me squash this one once and for all: Tachyon Mines do not apply "Negative Regen."

They act exactly the same as Charged Particle Burst. In fact, the data is a direct clone of CPB Rank 1, except that instead of disabling cloaks it applies a Shield Resistance debuff.

Actually, now that I look closer at it, the value of the shield drain on Tachyon Mines is actually about 30% lower than that of CPB 1. But, instead of a single hit, you get multiple mines, each of which apply their full effect.

I'll work on getting the tooltips for these items updated. But I wanted to clarify their operation. There's no such thing as an item that inflicts a Negative Regeneration. It's all Healing, Draining, HoTs and DoTs.
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Kurland here...
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# 28
03-11-2013, 04:53 PM
...but didn't geko say shield drains are a negative heal?
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# 29
03-11-2013, 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
...but didn't geko say shield drains are a negative heal?
So is all damage, technically. It applies a negative value to your Hitpoint pool.

The difference here is that when you're dealt Phaser damage (e.g.) it's parsed properly as dealing Phaser damage to your Hitpoint pool. Shield damage is different though, because Shields aren't the same type of pool as Hitpoints. They are ... well, they're different. And affecting them uses the same Attribute Modifier (same class as "Phaser" in the prior example) for both heals and drains. As a result, our Combat Log and Tooltips have a hard time recognizing which is which.

I'm really trying to pull back the iron curtain on how all this stuff works, guys. But sometimes you just need to trust me.
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Cryptic - Systems Design
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# 30
03-11-2013, 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I know that Shield Drains report poorly to the combat log, and in our tooltips unless manually overridden, so it's easy to see how some misconceptions could become accepted as truths.

But let me squash this one once and for all: Tachyon Mines do not apply "Negative Regen."

They act exactly the same as Charged Particle Burst. In fact, the data is a direct clone of CPB Rank 1, except that instead of disabling cloaks it applies a Shield Resistance debuff.

Actually, now that I look closer at it, the value of the shield drain on Tachyon Mines is actually about 30% lower than that of CPB 1. But, instead of a single hit, you get multiple mines, each of which apply their full effect.

I'll work on getting the tooltips for these items updated. But I wanted to clarify their operation. There's no such thing as an item that inflicts a Negative Regeneration. It's all Healing, Draining, HoTs and DoTs.

A couple of questions:

1) How much -resistance do these do?
2) How much "damage" to shields to these do?
3) Are these properly resisted by flow caps?

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