Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,123
# 51
03-12-2013, 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gstamo01 View Post
My question would be Perception in regards to the "Isis" duty officer.


"On activation of beams or cannons, provides a 1% chance to severely diminish the target's Perception.

1% chance: reduce target's Perception distance to 20% of current for 6 seconds"


If 5000 is the normal Perception stat and 1000 is the stat when the Isis proc activates, how does one figure out that distance.

Thanks
Watch a ship fly away from you until it disappears. That's about 25km. Isis can reduce it to 5km.

So, 5,000m (or 5km) x 5 = 25,000m or 25km. 1,000m (or 1km) x 5 = 5,000m or 5km.

Last edited by shookyang; 03-12-2013 at 11:29 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,031
# 52
03-12-2013, 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by origcaptainquack View Post
they not shooting the way they suppose to. not getting the dps that you should. and the console is useless.
You reckon? Check my sig.


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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 53
03-12-2013, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Whenever we diminish the value of something players have worked hard to earn, we try to compensate whenever possible. In this case, we chose to include a Defense bonus because it is thematically appropriate to the concept of being an elusive target in Space combat.

The changes in this patch both reduce the Stealth values attached to the Subterfuge Trait, and eliminate the stacking of those bonuses. We felt that a small Defense bonus would help mitigate those changes.

What is your specific concern over the Defense bonus? Do you feel that the bonus is too large?
The issue is precisely that defense stacking is already out of control.

An armitage for example can pull 140% defense rating permanently and more if it uses a few extra defense enhancing items/boff skills.

Aegis 2-piece. KHG shield. Elusive trait. Atk Omega 1 (two copies for perma-use). 3 doffs of +10% def each when on recall. base defense @ high speed = 70%. Add it up it all = 140% defense. evasive maneuvers, +def granting items, etc... can pull it over 140 for brief periods.

@ 140% defense even borg elite npcs have a very,very high miss rate. Players? Tough luck you aren't hitting that sucker unless you snare him (but o wait! omega = snare immunity and chroniton/subsystem engine cant land a hit on it!).

Now you guys are giving them an extra 18%?

Look..as it is, 'heal tanking' (resists, take damage & heal it, keep in the fight) is nearly dead in elite stfs thanks to the borg supertorpedo and super heavy plasma cannon damage spikes (100k+ torp damage and 30k per shot, nearly 6 shots in 1 second received from heavy plasma cannon). These arent crit damage or heavy torp hits..theyre regular torpedoes that spike in damage to insane levels. And as of 3 or 4 patches ago, these spike damage hits happen very regularly. This was supposed to be fixed and was fixed for a time but not its back.

Ironically, the only way to prevent the 1-shot borg supertorp death is to game the game and in a manner of speaking exploits the broken code/design so that the borg actually CRIT hit you all the time and thus prevent the normal damage hits that routinely superspike in damage. Sad isn't it?

Anyways, back on topic.. the defense bonus. In the above example with borg BS spike damage....the only way to 'tank' without getting the 1-hit death without exploiting the thing is to speed tank. Cant get a spike damage hit if they missing almost all the time. Ive seen jemhadar escort carriers and armitages just speed tank the gate and the tac cube in ISE with it and barely have to heal up. Try doing that in a VoQuv carrier set 100% for max resists and self healing and it will die in 1 minute from a superspike hit.

Honestly I think the defense bonus should be dropped completely. Romulans are NOT canonically known for being defensive. If anything they were known for disregarding defense if it was to allow their sneak attack to succeed.

Instead of a defense bonus why not have these boffs give a more 'romulan' trait? One that the romulans in DS9 and TNG continuously rubbed in the faces of the Federation and Klingons: That romulan officers were professional soldiers.

Professional (officer type) :

Tactical: Increased chance to proc for secondary effect of all weapons.
Engineer: decreased cost of energy weapons (power levels)
Scientist: Reduces native shield regeneration timer from 6 seconds to X seconds (purple boff= down to 2 seconds).

There. Instead of defense which can be exploited to high heaven by ... oh hey, surprise surprise here... ESCORTS... you now have a universal, functional, wanted set of benefits that all capt types and ships can really use and enjoy.


Finally, concerning stealth:

The mechanic is broken despite the math you show. Bird of prey with 25 aux power flown by engineer with 0 stealth skills is not visible until it is inside 5km range and most of the time not until it is inside 2km range. Ship detecting this bird of prey is under 25 aux as well and has no stealth or sensor skills. My best guess is some sort of lag issue or some sort of 'timer' in the server side that tells each ship at x intervals what theyre detecting and what not. If the bop crawls at 1/4th impulse from 10km to 2km it is usually spotted around 4km range. If its going at top speed its detected only at near point blank range.

This is probably why the nebula consoles have always been useless garbage.


One question remains however: Is there any stat or setting (power levels) that will affect the ambush from decloaking bonus? Or anything besides that one romulan boff?
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,482
# 54
03-12-2013, 12:59 PM
Armitage couldn't hit 140 defense, that was a display error, 110% yes.. which is high.

But don't worry, they already broke that when they fixed the display error.
Defense doffs no longer stack, even though you can slot 3, only one adds to defense.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,856
# 55
03-12-2013, 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Instead of a defense bonus why not have these boffs give a more 'romulan' trait? One that the romulans in DS9 and TNG continuously rubbed in the faces of the Federation and Klingons: That romulan officers were professional soldiers.

Professional (officer type) :

Tactical: Increased chance to proc for secondary effect of all weapons.
Engineer: decreased cost of energy weapons (power levels)
Scientist: Reduces native shield regeneration timer from 6 seconds to X seconds (purple boff= down to 2 seconds).
the other 2 are nice, even desirable, but the science one is WAY too overpowered, especially combined with the 2 shield regen passives from reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwecaptainsmirk View Post
*reassuringly strokes your hair*
Hush now, you will be back kicking Neelix and killing those nasty Vaadwaur soon enough... hush child.
*pat pat on your head*
epic smirk is epic
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,123
# 56
03-12-2013, 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
Defense doffs no longer stack, even though you can slot 3, only one adds to defense.
Defense DOFF? You mean BOFF?

If the later:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zer0niusrex View Post
[*]The Stealth Bonus and Ambush Bonus from having multiple Bridge Officers with Subterfuge does not stack, but the Defense bonus will.[/list]
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 57
03-12-2013, 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfang240 View Post
the other 2 are nice, even desirable, but the science one is WAY too overpowered, especially combined with the 2 shield regen passives from reputation
Its the only way regenerative shields would be worth using. Its why its there.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 58
03-13-2013, 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
Armitage couldn't hit 140 defense, that was a display error, 110% yes.. which is high.

But don't worry, they already broke that when they fixed the display error.
Defense doffs no longer stack, even though you can slot 3, only one adds to defense.
No, it is not a display error.

defense rating when high engine power & top speed = 70 def.
3 doffs of 10% defense each when pets on recall = 30% (they stack).
elusive captain trait = 10%
dual Attack Patern Omega 1 = 20%'ish defense (9pnt attack patterns. its 18% plus the big flight speed bonus adding into def rating)
=130%.
The last 10% comes from the aegis 2-piece set.
= 140%

That is 140% defense that is run nonstop (dual omegas kept running continuously).

Non-permanent def bonuses that can stack to this:

Evasive Maneuvers = +25% defense. 60s timer
Emg Power to Engines= +flight speed bonus that translates into about 10% extra def for 5 seconds. 45 sec timer
Aux to dampeners = +flight speed that translates into 15%'ish bonus def for 15 secs. 30 sec timer.
Impulse Capacitance Cell : +325% def (lulz) on I believe 3 minute timer.

This is how the armitage/jemhadar escort carrier, with the above equipment and boff abilities, can become virtually impossible to hit. It flies around with its 'standard' 140% def rating and IF it starts to take hits (not saying its immune completely) all it does is ignite of of the non-permanent bonuses and makes itself even harder to hit.

The KGH shield of 25% accuracy loss on target proc makes the setup kit even stronger.

Only escort carriers can do this setup. Carrier-cruisers (vesta, kdf flight deck cruisers) do not have the turn rate to stay in a close fight at high speeds.

This is why I'm saying that defense stacking is already ridiculously out of control. They need to come up with some other stuff other than just focus on escort-benefiting stats.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 59
03-13-2013, 02:47 PM
cmdrskyfaller, don't scare the devs away, I want to read more cool behind the scenes math!
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 18,593
# 60
03-19-2013, 09:18 AM
First of all, just wanted to point out (it may be over in the bug section, but I didn't look - mea culpa) the following:

Mirror DSSV
Astrophysicist trait (+10 Sensors)
9 pts Sensors
Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI
4x VR Sensor Probes Mk XII
125 Aux

When you first login, it shows a SDR of 593.50 - you can transwarp, go to sector space, go back to normal space, and when in normal space - it will show that 593.50 number.

Drop down to ESD and then back out to normal space - bazinga - looking at 650.75 instead.

ie, if you never go to the ground - it's going to display the incorrect SDR. Now, is this just a display issue or is it actually calculating your SDR incorrectly at that point?

If you remove one of the Sensor Probes, the SDR drops down to 605.75 - it drops 45 for a +30 console. Remove a second console, and you're down to 553.25 now - a loss of 52.5 for that second +30 console. A third? 500.75 and another loss of 52.5 for it. The fourth? 448.25 and another 52.5 lost.

Okay, let's add the consoles back. Wait, what's this? Adding a console takes us to 485.75 instead of the 500.75 we had before we took it off. Second takes us to 538.25 - third takes us to 590.75 - and the fourth takes us to 643.25 which is not the "correct" number we had after visiting a ground instance to "correct" that initial number.

Okay, so we take the Jem deflector off now. It drops us to 493.50 from 643.25 - a loss of 149.75 - but, let's add it back, eh? And tada, we're back at that 650.75 number.

If we remove the Jem deflector and Sensor consoles, we drop down to 313.50 for our SDR. Then we add the Jem deflector back...tada, we get 440.75 - which is not the number we had when we removed all the Sensor consoles and left just the deflector in place. Add all the Sensor consoles back, we get the 643.25 - which we can fix by taking the deflector off and putting it back on to get to that 650.75...which might be the right number? Can't really say, eh? What's the math behind converting Sensors to SDR?

Should be able to backtrack it some, eh? Remove the Sensor consoles and the Jem deflector. That drops it down to that 313.50 number. Based on what was offered for the Aux to SDR conversion for a Sci Vessel - the 125 Aux should provide 150 SDR. If we subtract that, we should get 163.50 as our number just reflecting the 109 Sensors (9 pts Sensors +10 from Astro). That would work out to 1.5 per Sensor. If I add a +30 Sensor console, then I should see a bonus of +45 to the SDR - right? 358.50 (+45 compared to that 313.50 number). So each point of Sensors provides +1.5 SDR.

Okay then, so we're looking at the following:

125 Aux = 150 SDR
229 Sensors = 343.5 SDR

Bazinga - that's the number that shows when I drop the four consoles back in - I get the 493.50 number.

Let's add that +1% Jem deflector, eh? Wait...+1%? So based on the formula you gave previous - that +1% should be 100 SDR, no? 100/10000 = 0.01 - no?

If I add the deflector after the consoles - then the deflector is adding 157.25 to the SDR. If I add the deflector before the consoles - then it adds 127.25 to the SDR.
If I remove it after removing the consoles - then it was adding 134.75 to the SDR.

Okay, let's step back for a moment then. Is there anything else that does a +1% sort of thing? Aha, EPtA1 does +1% Stealthsight. Okay, is that it then - is that the difference? The Jem deflector adds +1% to Stealth Detection?

Cause sure enough, hitting EPtA1 adds 100 to the SDR as would be expected based on the formula you provided and the example given just above.

There anything else like that? Sensor Scan III says it adds +5.2% Stealthsight - so I should expect +520 SDR, right? It should be 833.50 after I hit the ability. I get 836 - which - based on rounding that likely took place, is close enough for government work - am I right?

The Jem deflector is obviously not working like that. It's a +1% Stealth Detection - but it's not a +1% Stealthsight. It's not adding 100 to the SDR. Is it a +1% Perception bonus then?

Let's take a look.
5000 * (1 + (493.50 / 10000))
5000 * (1 + (0.04935)) = 5246.75 * 1.01 = 5299.2175
5299.2175 = 5000 * (1 + (X / 10000))
1.0598435 = 1 + (X / 10000)
0.0598435 = X / 10000
598.435 = X

Our SDR should be 598.435ish when we add the Jem deflector. It's not. Our SDR is 650.75, remember? But wait, remember how this whole post started? Because when you logged in and before you went to the ground - the SDR was 593.50? Wait...nah, I'll come back to it. /cough

Let's look at that, eh?
5000 * (1 + (593.50 / 10000))
5000 * (1 + (0.05935)) = 5296.75 * 0.99 = 5243.7825

I'd say that 5246.75 and 5243.7825 are pretty close, eh?

Remember that wait I mentioned and said I'd come back to it? 593.50 - 493.50 = 100. When you login, the +1% for the Jem deflector is acting like a +1% Stealthsight. Yes, most of the math just done was somewhat pointless - that +1% was going to vary very minutely, eh?

Okay then, what's that 650.75 doing then? Is the 593.50 the correct number?

5000 * 1.065075 = 5325.375
5000 * 1.04935 = 5246.75

5325.375 / 5246.75 = 1.014985467193977

So, you login to the game - you get a +1% from the deflector. You go to the ground and back (or switch gear around) - then you get a +1.5% from the deflector.

Like I said though, you don't have to go to the ground. You login, you've got your 593.50 number. Remove one of the Sensor consoles and your SDR actually goes up to 605.75 (yes, this is where I first noticed it - WTF - I take a console out and the number goes up? Lol, anyway)...course, you add the console back - get the 643.25 number - drop the deflector - add the deflector - and tada, you're back at that 650.75 number. You can just as easily just take the deflector off and put it back to take it from the 1% to 1.5%...

So uh - is it supposed to be +1% or +1.5%...and which ever it is, can we have it actually be that without having to play musical consoles and deflectors?

And none of that was actually what I wanted to post about - that was just the "first, let me..." - meh, lol, whatever, eh?

Okay, I guess I'll have work with both numbers for what I'm looking at then (593.50 & 650.75).

So the perception on this guy is:

5296.75 (593.50)
5325.375 (650.75)

5346.75 (693.50 + EPtA1)
5375.375 (750.75 + EPtA1)

5708 (1416 + Scan3)
5736.5 (1473 + Scan3)

5758 (1516 + EPtA1 + Scan3)
5786.625 (1573.25 + EPtA1 + Scan3)

So at this point I should be able to see that 4975 Stealth guy at 15.66km or 16.23km.

Okay, so in looking at one of my guys. He's got 0 Stealth skill, no consoles, sitting at 104 Aux, and has 5029.7 Stealth. I give him a +15 Stealth console (I'm cheap) - which takes his Stealth to 5037.2 - he got +7.5 as per your each skill point of stealth is worth half a point of stealth. Not doubting you, honestly, just providing a potential example for somebody following along.

So let's say somebody takes 9 in Stealth (99 skill points of Stealth), adds 3x +30 Stealth consoles, and they've got the Mk XII KHG deflector - so they'll have 197.8 skill points worth of stealth (curious, eh? that's pretty close to the 200 number for having the uber sneaky Rom BOFF). Let's go ahead and add one of those Rom BOFFs to take it to 397.8 Stealth skill.

So we'd divide that in half to add to the 4975 (no Stealth skill/50 Aux) guy to get a Stealth rating of 5173.9 - and - from sliding around Aux, it looks like 1 Aux = 1 Stealth rating. So let's take this guy from 50 Aux to 125 Aux.

Quick review then:

9 Stealth (99 Stealth skill points)
3x +30 Stealth consoles (90 Stealth skill points)
KHG Mk XII deflector (8.8 Stealth skill points)
Rom BOFF (200 Stealth pseudo skill points)
125 Aux (150 Stealth pseudo skill points)

That would take the 4975 guy to 5248.9 Stealth.

So going back to my Perception Guy from above...

5296.75 (593.50) - 5248.9 = 47.85 / 50 = 0.957km
5325.375 (650.75) - 5248.9 = 76.475 / 50 = 1.5295km

5346.75 (693.50 + EPtA1) - 5248.9 = 97.85 / 50 = 1.957km
5375.375 (750.75 + EPtA1) - 5248.9 = 126.475 / 50 = 2.5295km

5708 (1416 + Scan3) - 5248.9 = 459.1 / 50 = 9.182km
5736.5 (1473 + Scan3) - 5248.9 = 487.6 / 50 = 9.752km

5758 (1516 + EPtA1 + Scan3) - 5248.9 = 509.1 / 50 = 10.182km
5786.625 (1573.25 + EPtA1 + Scan3) - 5248.9 = 537.725 / 50 = 10.7545km

So if I were to grab somebody and go test...those are around the distances that things should be working, eh?

The guy with...

9 Sensors
4x +30 Sensor Probes
Astrophysicist Trait
125 Aux
Jem Deflector Mk XI
EPtA1 (remember, it's only 5s)
Sensor Scan 3 (remember, it's only 20s)

...should be able to the see the guy with...

9 Stealth
3x +30 Stealth Modules
125 Aux
KHG Deflector Mk XII
Rom Subterfuge BOFF

...at ~10.1-10.8km for 5s.
...at ~9.2-9.7km for another 15s.
...at ~1-1.5km otherwise.

That about right?

If it was just the 4975 Stealth guy, then it would be...

...at ~15.6-16.2km for 5s.
...at ~14.6-15.2km for another 15s.
...at ~6.4-7km otherwise.

That about right?

edit: This also means the following...

5075 Stealth Rating (4975 guy & 200 Stealth Skill Rom BOFF)

5075 = 5000 * (1 + (X / 10000))
X = 150

You'd need 150 SDR just to get to a 0 difference.

To be able to see that Stealther at 0.5km, you'd need...5100 Perception.

5100 = 5000 * (1 + (X / 10000))
X = 200

0 Sensors, no Sensor boosting gear, no Sensor Scan or other abilities, etc, etc, etc.

Your max SDR in a non-Sci with 125 Aux would be 50.
In a Sci with 125 Aux, you could get 150.

Neither is going to let you see that "unskilled" Stealther with the Rom BOFF even at 0.5km. The guy could board your ship, eat your lunch, use your bathroom, take a nap in your bed, and steal your autographed life-sized Shatner cardboard standup.

If that guy takes 9 Sensors too, he could see the Stealther at 0.485km...that's how he could save the Shatner!

If he has less than 5 Sensors, he'll never see the guy unless the guy wants him to see him. (Pronounsanity!)
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Last edited by virusdancer; 03-19-2013 at 10:23 AM.
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