Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 31
03-13-2013, 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by merryprankster2 View Post
For the record, I think StarFleet would have moral objections, to storing multiple, cannisters of a highly unstable, explosive, gas on ANY of it's starships.
Item description says that the gas has not only been stabilized, but also made available through the replicator.

If you don't know this already, Metreon Gas Canisters come in the form of a universal console with the Assault Refit. They're a total waste on that ship, but potentially useful on the Mirror Star Cruiser due to the latter's decreased emphasis on offensive capability in favour support and healing.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 749
# 32
03-13-2013, 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
unfortunatly it seems like the devs have got themselves into a system of;
escort superiority leads to more escort popularity,
more escort popularity which leads to more sales of escorts,
which leads to more sales of escorts which leads to more perks for escorts,
which leads to more escort superiority which leads to more escort popularity,


pretty sure i have seen that kind of system in textbooks

personally id like to see ship stats by size and the current broken classification system to refer only to the boff power & console bias.
Agreed...this is a vicious circle...would be nice if they could focus on "balancing" ships/skills a bit more. After all this is becoming ESCORTS online....if you dont have one you are missing alot of gameplay. I'm all for balancing all ships to skills equally...they already nerfed SCIENCE in lieue of TACTs for profit making....isnt time to balance the game again....
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 33
03-13-2013, 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I will challenge your statement that Starfleet is a cruiser heavy force. Based on what we see in the various series I'd say that TNG starfleet was mostly Mirandas/Nebulas and smaller ships. The series follows the Enterprise but it hardly ever meets up with other cruisers.

Post Dominion War I'd assume Starfleet is rebuilt, in part with more combat capable vessels. These more combat oriented vessels are what we now call "escorts". Their classification is not based on size but on function. Starfleet makes warships that are fast, heavily armed and heavily shielded, their purpose to never again find themselves with no recourse should diplomacy fail. But Starfleet also uses other, less combat oriented ships. This is where cruisers and sci vessels come in.

While the original design intent is lost to us, its not hard to imagine that a pre launch STO was planned to include more than just combat. Imagine if there were also diplomatic or scientific type encounters along with the combat encounters we have now? Cruisers and Sci Vessels would shine in such situations. As we all know, Cryptic was unable to bring to life such an implementation. BUT! I find it interesting that there was mention of other uses becoming available for cruisers and sci vessels. Maybe we'll see another system that revolves around tasks that cruisers and sci vessels would excell at? We can only hope.
Actually, starfleet is a cruiser heavy organization. Thing is, the only 'escort' ever shown was the defiant. As the ship of the main character it was obviously made to look larger than life.

however, if you actually watch DS9 and see what the defiant actually did in combat.

The entire series has it shooting at jemhadar attack ships, birds of prey, shuttle sized ships and in the few instances it attacks cruisers it is shown taking a beating and generally forced to withdraw. The only time it killed a cruiser sized ship was when it shot down 2 breen cruisers...and it did so in just 2 bursts of phaser cannon and 1 volley of quantum torps... so it can hardly be considered realistic to think it alpha striked them down but more likely the ships were already heavily hurt (shields down).
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,709
# 34
03-13-2013, 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Actually, starfleet is a cruiser heavy organization. Thing is, the only 'escort' ever shown was the defiant. As the ship of the main character it was obviously made to look larger than life.
I guess I didn't explain myself very well. I meant cruisers as we know them today. The big general purpose ships. In cannon I think everything was a cruiser of some variety with the exceptions of the Defiant and maybe the Oberth.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 35
03-13-2013, 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I guess I didn't explain myself very well. I meant cruisers as we know them today. The big general purpose ships. In cannon I think everything was a cruiser of some variety with the exceptions of the Defiant and maybe the Oberth.
More than anything else, I would put it down more to Cryptic's poor grasp of what cruisers really are: multipurpose vessels that are suited for a variety of missions. If we were to take that at face value, most cruisers should have one boff slot each for tactical, science, and engineering, with the remainder either universals or tailored towards a given goal. Whatever the case, they shouldn't all be lumbering space whales that take ten kilometers to make a full 180 turn and hit like an emaciated child.
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7
# 36
03-13-2013, 01:00 PM
I don't know that escorts are really so OP - my feeling is that cruisers and sci ships are just really broken.

STO tried to not use the DPS/Tank/Healer MMO trinity. This (imho) was a mistake. As an escort captain, I can't remember the last time I got a heal from anyone that wasn't already my friend or on a premade. I also can't remember the last time a cruiser actually held agro from a big mob while a sci ship buffed/healed them.

The game is very focused around rewarding you for kills, and kills are what escorts/BOPs are good at. There are no dedicated tanks or healers, or rewards for doing either of those things. As a result, the people after the big rewards don't play cruisers or science ships so much.

The PVE game is also balanced for the average (solo) player, not the min-maxer or the hardcore PVPer (or even just a compotent premade team). PVP is fierce and if you (or your build) are not competitive - you die. Lots of PVPers fly escorts and BOPs - and they are very very good at it because they have to be. They aren't fighting NPC battleships that use the same weak tactics over and over again, they are fighting smart people with good builds and the best gear. As a result, these players are just devastating in any PVE encounter. (Have you seen the XXX has completed wave 8+ of No Win Scenario messages?) That said, there are LOTS of terrible escort builds out there. I just don't think it's fair to compare an average player (in any ship) to a min-maxer or PVPer (in any ship but especially escorts).

I do think it's fix-able though.

First, IMHO they need to add sepearte Tanking and Healing rewards to ALL of the STFs. They should not count self-heals for the healing. There just has to be some reason for players to want to heal people (that they don't know) in the STFs and missions.

Second, the big mobs (battleships, etc.) need to be tougher and hit harder in general, not rely on super high damage attacks to make them hard. Giving every battleship a 200k dmg instakill every 60 sec is not fun or clever or condusive to teams working together. The big mobs need to require a tank - and the really hard ones need to require a tank and a healer to keep the tank alive. That's the way MMOs work - they just need to accept that and fix it.

Finally, they need to give cruisers more ability to tank (pull and hold agro) and more resist abilities. Likewise, science ships need more healing and buffing abilities. If the escort and science captains see a cruiser join the team and think - Yay, we have a tank. That's a good sign that cruisers are needed/wanted to fill that role. If cruiser and escort captains see a science ship join the team and think - Yay, we have a healer - that's a good sign science ships are needed/wanted to fill that role.

As things are now - cruisers and science ships are not able to be effective tanks or healers... and the big mobs don't require tanks or healers... and there is no reward or other reason for them to tank or heal. It's all just kill-kill-kill (everyone for themselves). This is what escorts are good at so of course they beat the cruisers and science ships at it.

Escorts are currently the only ships in the game that both do what they are suppsoed to do AND have something to do in the missions that earns a reward. We need to fix cruisers, science ships, and mission rewards, not break the escorts.

Just my .02,

- SC
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,840
# 37
03-13-2013, 01:09 PM
I actually agree with that.

Buff what is weak, not nerf what is good and working properly.


Give Science ships better returns at high AUX power for abilities, and give the cruisers more health and shield modifiers.


Also, a thread for great PVE Cruiser builds might stop all the whiners that want every escort ship taken out of the game.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 38
03-13-2013, 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
"The Dominion has existed for 2,000 years, and will continue to exist long after your Federation has crumbled into dust!"

Off-topic I know, but I couldn't get that quote out of my head.
Counter-Quote:

"Surrender? Perish the thought! The Dominion has never surrendered in battle for 10,000 years since it's founding!" -Weyoun "What You Leave Behind"

(Just watched that episode to watch Miranda's get blown to bits, and happened to hear Weyoun say that XD)
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Ensign
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 2
# 39 Escorts in STO
05-12-2013, 06:19 AM
ok, i see alot of u complaining about escorts. i have both a VA tact and a VA engi., and
i dont see the issue here, they seem balanced to me. only problem i ever have with escorts is the Jem-bug. ridiculously powerful. have you guys ever "tried" playing a tactical officer? they DO NOT excell at everything. u put a tact in a sci ship hes gonna get pounded to hell and back by damn near anyone! i say if they nerf the cannons, nerf the heals engineers can dish out. sounds to me you just want cruisers to run the game..just m/o..
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 669
# 40
05-12-2013, 06:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I will challenge your statement that Starfleet is a cruiser heavy force. Based on what we see in the various series I'd say that TNG starfleet was mostly Mirandas/Nebulas and smaller ships. The series follows the Enterprise but it hardly ever meets up with other cruisers.

Post Dominion War I'd assume Starfleet is rebuilt, in part with more combat capable vessels. These more combat oriented vessels are what we now call "escorts". Their classification is not based on size but on function. Starfleet makes warships that are fast, heavily armed and heavily shielded, their purpose to never again find themselves with no recourse should diplomacy fail. But Starfleet also uses other, less combat oriented ships. This is where cruisers and sci vessels come in.

While the original design intent is lost to us, its not hard to imagine that a pre launch STO was planned to include more than just combat. Imagine if there were also diplomatic or scientific type encounters along with the combat encounters we have now? Cruisers and Sci Vessels would shine in such situations. As we all know, Cryptic was unable to bring to life such an implementation. BUT! I find it interesting that there was mention of other uses becoming available for cruisers and sci vessels. Maybe we'll see another system that revolves around tasks that cruisers and sci vessels would excell at? We can only hope.

DS9 was filmed with limited ship models. They only had the Ships that were left over from TNG. and the Movies. So they had to use Mirandas and Excelsior and Galaxy and Nebula class ships beacuse thats all they had. In later episodes you can see the Model builders running out of options and creating the famious "Shelley" class ships.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/dscn1249a.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/005qjj.jpg/
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