Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,949
# 11
03-15-2013, 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elessym View Post
The surveys aren't free Zen either - the only difference is that instead of another player paying PWE, it's the company running the survey.
You hobby time is free - it has no intrinsic value. If it weren't then why aren't you complaining that Cryptic isn't paying you for your time spent playing STO?
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,191
# 12
03-15-2013, 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptvanor View Post
That's a matter of perspective.

You bought the LTS for the sake of unlimited access to STO for the life of the game, not for a 500 zen/month stipend.
Of course it's a matter of perspective, and my perspective is this:

"You bought the LTS for the sake of unlimited access to STO for the life of the game, which includes a 500 zen/month stipend."

So, each month I would get 500Z "free", but really part of my LTS cost went to the stipend and each month that LTS membership value decreases per month. Let's say the LTS = $300.00, then after 12 months I've "paid" $25 per month. After 24 months, I've "paid" $12.50 per month, etc etc.

Some part of each monthly "payment" goes to the stipend, whatever it is does not matter, just that it's there.

Efectively, by paying for LTS membership, I'm paying for that stipend. The longer the game survives the less each month I've paid to access the game which includes a Zen stipend.

I'm not saying I'm 100% right on this, but it's a perspective I share with the OP - that nothing is free.
Kathryn S. Beringer - The Dawn Patrol

Solaris build - Veritatum Liquido Cernene
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 518
# 13
03-15-2013, 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrscarlet View Post
"You bought the LTS for the sake of unlimited access to STO for the life of the game, which includes a 500 zen/month stipend."
That's only true if you bought it after they started offering the Zen. For many people Zen or even C-Points didn't exist then. That stipend didn't exist at that time so it couldn't of been included.

Quote:
I'm not saying I'm 100% right on this, but it's a perspective I share with the OP - that nothing is free.
If the stipend was part of the deal when you got the LTS you might have a point, but if it wasn't, then no your logic completely falls apart. I can't pay for something that didn't exist.

Even then, the LTS isn't paying for that stipend, the cost is to buy unlimited access to the game for the life of the game. They don't have a stipend and No Stipend version. You're paying the same amount for access regardless of the stipend.

So in this case at least for some people that 500 zen is free, they didn't pay anything for it, so it is by any reasonable definition of the word free. Even if it was part of the package I still say it's free, because you didn't have to pay anything extra for it.

It's like saying a buy one, get one free, isn't really free. If I pay X for Y but get 2 times Y, I got something for free. I'd have to pay X for Y no matter what, so I am in fact getting something for free, because I did not have to pay for that 2nd Y.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 203
# 14
03-15-2013, 11:08 AM
Somehow I get the feeling that some of the OP's comments may have been directed towards me and the thread I created a few months back. In this thread I documented all 25 days it took me to earn enough zen using only the exchange to get a Bortasqu' bundle worth 5,000 zen. I even titled it sticking it to the man.

Someone posted on the thread this same argument. My opinions have not changed towards the issue. Cryptic/PWE placed that bundle in the C-Store to get someone to buy $50 worth of zen to get it. I will agree that PWE did get $50 for that 5k zen from somewhere, but they did not get it from me. I am a completely F2P player. I don't spend any real money on this game. For me at least, this item was free. The only thing I spent is time, and I don't count that because I was going to play this game anyway.

I felt that title was appropriate then, and I still feel it is appropriate now. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
SGT Milton Monzon, SGT Alexander Fuller, SGT Michael Bartley, SGT Martin LaMar
Rest in Peace Brothers
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,031
# 15
03-15-2013, 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecosmic1 View Post
You hobby time is free - it has no intrinsic value. If it weren't then why aren't you complaining that Cryptic isn't paying you for your time spent playing STO?
You have completely missed the point, which is that Zen is never free - PWE always gets paid by someone for it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 777
# 16
03-15-2013, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrscarlet View Post
I dunno ...

The Zen stiped still cost the LTS member money, its just that each month the money spent for the Zen gets proportionally smaller and smaller as time goes by. But even the stipend cost the LTS money.

I've checked out the "free Zen for the surveys. The cost - at minimum - is time to the participant. In this case, "Free" is a lure.

So, I think the OP is ultimately correct - there is nothing "free" at all.
Also you don't think there is money being exchanged for posting (or as a result) of the Peanut Labs ads?

Nothing is free. There are profits being made by the services and ads.
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Last edited by sirokk; 03-15-2013 at 12:01 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 157
# 17
03-15-2013, 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptvanor View Post
That's only true if you bought it after they started offering the Zen. For many people Zen or even C-Points didn't exist then. That stipend didn't exist at that time so it couldn't of been included.



If the stipend was part of the deal when you got the LTS you might have a point, but if it wasn't, then no your logic completely falls apart. I can't pay for something that didn't exist.

Even then, the LTS isn't paying for that stipend, the cost is to buy unlimited access to the game for the life of the game. They don't have a stipend and No Stipend version. You're paying the same amount for access regardless of the stipend.

So in this case at least for some people that 500 zen is free, they didn't pay anything for it, so it is by any reasonable definition of the word free. Even if it was part of the package I still say it's free, because you didn't have to pay anything extra for it.

It's like saying a buy one, get one free, isn't really free. If I pay X for Y but get 2 times Y, I got something for free. I'd have to pay X for Y no matter what, so I am in fact getting something for free, because I did not have to pay for that 2nd Y.
But it's not really free. You bought two items at a 50% discount. The only difference between a BOGO sale and a 50% off sale is not letting you get the discount on a single item.

Likewise, the LTS purchase was buying a subscription for every month that the game continues to operate. The actual amount of discount will only be known when the game shuts down. It is possible to calculate points at which one would spend less by buying an LTS vs recurring subscriptions. To someone who gives up on the game before the break-even point - and subscription-tenure statistics even for healthy, expanding games suggest that's probably the majority - an LTS isn't even a discount.
Continuing to provide the services covered under the LTS past the break-even point isn't some sort of gift. It's the other side of the wager.

And anyone who claims the stipend is "free" needs to go ask silver players how much their stipend is. It's not free, it's paid for as part of the subscription.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dstahl View Post
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Bitter old mollusc since before the forum change.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,949
# 18
03-15-2013, 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elessym View Post
You have completely missed the point, which is that Zen is never free - PWE always gets paid by someone for it.
I do not care how Perfect World gets paid from surveyors. I simply care about what I need to pay out of my own pocket, or the pockets of others playing the game.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,498
# 19
03-15-2013, 11:21 AM
"1. When you use dilithium to purchase Zen and buy something from the C-Store, you are "sticking it to the man" because you got something "free"."
" You did not pay any real money for the item, but somebody did. They bought Zen, with real money. They then sold that Zen to you in exchange for your dilithium."
"The gist of all this is that PWE doesn't get richer or poorer regardless of what the dilithium exchange does."


yupp

but i still have not spend MY money to get MY C-Store items, and that is the bottom line for ME, and i am happy with that.

I want Cryptic to earn money to keep MY game running and to keep working on it.

If some Pay 2 Win oriented player wants to buy my dilithium, then i am happy to supply him with it.

I make so much Dil to Zen in a month, i don't even notice the 500 Zen from my LTA when they drop in (if you can make 800+ Zen in a day then 500 per month is ... almost insulting.).

On that note, i don't need Zen anymore, done with the C-Store, unless Cryptic releases a new item, yet i am still buying Zen just to build up the buffer, and to be able to exchange back to Dil as needed ...for SB projects or whatever items come along (it is just more convenient to have account wide Zen instead of per character Dilithium at hand).
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,700
# 20
03-15-2013, 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecosmic1 View Post
Not completely false. As an LTS member, yourself, you should understand that you get 500 "free" Zen each month. You can also get "free" Zen by doing various surveys on the website. I have sold my "free" Zen for Dilithium on occasion - and I'm sure I am not alone there. So while it is true the vast majority of Zen is paid for by someone there is also a percentage being sold in the Dilithium Exchange that was never purchased by anyone.
Even that's not completely free as you paid real money for that LTS when you first bought it; so Cryptic (and I say Cryptic because if you paid for it at the original launch of STO - yep PWE probably didn't see much actual return) did get funds out of you at some point; so in effect you paid something. As for the surveys - I'm sure the legit ones that award you Zen pay something to PWE - so again, someone is forking over some cash or service PWE needs in exchange for them being able to award Zen.

Ovaerall, in the grand scheme of things, while there is some 'lower cost' Zen injected into the market, it's not 100% 'free' for anyone.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=91861979000&dateline=  1340755546
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