Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,050
# 11
03-19-2013, 11:32 AM
Some points I'd like to add:

The old game "Klingon Academy" (which I'm sure people remember, especially thanks to Christopher Plummer's wonderful performance) made it clear that the reward for passing the tests of command schoold was innedeate command of a starship.
While STO is a different game, something similar could certainly be used in this game for player characters:
They have done extraordinary deeds and there thus rewarded with a command.

Also the basic B'rel BoP (in terms of crew) would be the equivalent of a "Fast Attack Craft", which were actually commanded by lieutenants.
So lieutenant as a starting level would also work pretty well IMO.

I'd like to propose a change to the Klingon rank structure of a different sort:
The Klingon rank structure is a bit fuzzy but from what we've seen the majority of times, it would actually work a lot better if it had an army-style system.
We've seen lieutenant Klag as a second in command to a captain in TNG:"A Matter of Honor" we've seen Colonel Worf and Brigadier Kerla in Star Trek 6.
So why not an army structure instead, that ends with the equivalent to the navy captain (NATO OF-5) at colonel?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 232
# 12
03-19-2013, 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwave85 View Post
In time of war particularly, whosoever holds the highest commissioned rank is in command of a ship. Even a freshly minted Ensign could be left in command of a small ship full of crewmen and NCOs, if that's what's necessary. From what I remember of the tutorial (granted it's been a while), this is essentially how you wind up in command of your little starter ship despite being a mere lieutenant ?*everybody above you died. To cite an example from elsewhere in fiction, Bright Noa is left in command of White Base despite being a lowly ensign/lieutenant (paygrade O1). He was literally the only commissioned officer left alive, and therefore in command. He wasn't relieved by a higher ranking officer because the EFSF didn't have a lot of seasoned officers to go around, and they considered White Base disposable. You also have the example of Watters being given command of the Valiant despite being a mere cadet (he got a field commission from Ramirez before he died, but still).
Yes in times where an ensign or higher is the only survivng officer then yes they will assume command. And I can see the lower ranks commanding the smaller ships like frigates and light cruisers. It is common for an Ensign or Lt to be in command of a frigate, light cruisers a Lt or Lt Comm, Medium crusiers Lt Comm or Commander. Heavy cruisers, battle ships, carriers and anything of that caliber and size you won't find anything lower than the rank of Capt, or anything above that rank commanding those ships either.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 232
# 13
03-19-2013, 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naevius View Post
The lowest rank at which it makes sense to command a ship would be Lt. Cmdr. (hence the 'Commander' part of the rank.) And the maximum rank should be Captain, or posibbly some kind of 'Senior' or 'Post' Captain. (Not 'Fleet Captain', which is another thing entirely.)

So - 3 or 4 ranks only. Which says nothing about how many levels there would be.
It actually depends on ship size on what rank you will find commanding said ship, at least in the US Navy. Some of the smaller vessels are commanded by ensigns but when you get to carriers, which are the lead ship of the battle group, you wont find anything lower than capt commanding it nor will you see any rank above that either.

The US Navy had a high capt rank which was changed to commodore then later done away with. But I see no reason why the rank of commodore couldn't be inserted as per the conditions I stated in my original post. I think it would be appropriate to award the ranks higher than capt to those who have veteran status by their number of days of playing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 232
# 14
03-19-2013, 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Some points I'd like to add:

The old game "Klingon Academy" (which I'm sure people remember, especially thanks to Christopher Plummer's wonderful performance) made it clear that the reward for passing the tests of command schoold was innedeate command of a starship.
While STO is a different game, something similar could certainly be used in this game for player characters:
They have done extraordinary deeds and there thus rewarded with a command.

Also the basic B'rel BoP (in terms of crew) would be the equivalent of a "Fast Attack Craft", which were actually commanded by lieutenants.
So lieutenant as a starting level would also work pretty well IMO.

I'd like to propose a change to the Klingon rank structure of a different sort:
The Klingon rank structure is a bit fuzzy but from what we've seen the majority of times, it would actually work a lot better if it had an army-style system.
We've seen lieutenant Klag as a second in command to a captain in TNG:"A Matter of Honor" we've seen Colonel Worf and Brigadier Kerla in Star Trek 6.
So why not an army structure instead, that ends with the equivalent to the navy captain (NATO OF-5) at colonel?
I like that idea of using the army ranks that match the naval ones since it appears thats what the Klingons use anyway.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,248
# 15
03-19-2013, 05:27 PM
Somewhat agree.

As has been pointed out, it's more an RP thing; and when I'm in that kind of mood my KDF character is the kind of guy who'd give himself a rank like 'Brigadier General' even if nobody else would.

I do hate being an Admiral on the Fed side though.

I use titles and rank insignia to try and work around it; but NPCs and the game UI just love to remind me that I'm deluding myself.
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 232
# 16
03-19-2013, 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnmanx View Post
Somewhat agree.

As has been pointed out, it's more an RP thing; and when I'm in that kind of mood my KDF character is the kind of guy who'd give himself a rank like 'Brigadier General' even if nobody else would.

I do hate being an Admiral on the Fed side though.

I use titles and rank insignia to try and work around it; but NPCs and the game UI just love to remind me that I'm deluding myself.
To me its more than just an RP thing. I can remember way back in my creative writing class my instructor telling me that if I was writing a sci fi story I had to include elements of believability into it to lend it a bit of credibility. If not and you went too far out there with it then the reader would be put off so to speak and the story wouldn't be received well. Having us top out at admiral takes away from the credence of the MMO world Cryptic has built making it less palatable to the players.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,143
# 17
03-19-2013, 07:16 PM
At least Brigadier General is less of a glaring thing than all the feds being called a Admiral since there appeared to be more Generals doing work from the bridge of a starship, Martok was a General and commanded a single ship after he was freed from the Dominion prison camp so its at least feasible that a B.General could be in command of a single ship within the KDF.
toDuj 'oS rol.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 67
# 18
03-19-2013, 09:06 PM
are carrier battle groups not commanded by an admiral? yes, i understand that that's not just one ship, but when he commands a CBG, is he not also in command of his flagship?

edit: also, the command structure in star trek's universe is clearly different than that of modern militaries...i.e. i'd doubt that you'd see a lieutenant commanding a ship of the line...even a small one. also, in the modern military, (you'll have to confirm/deny this, because while i'm relatively sure, i'm not positive) there's a limit to the number of admirals there can be at any given moment, yes? *walks around esd, watching the crowds of admirals*

after-shower-edit: and for the record: i agree. having everyone be a vice admiral is weird. my suggestion would be something like this. section 13 and their klingon analogue (i dunno...klingon intelligence? i know they have to have a secret police or something) recruit us early on in our carreers (i know feds get missions where sec13 comes into play pretty hard, not sure on klink), and they give us ranks that're roughly equivalent to the current rank structure, but are named differently, and are technically outside and a step up from the typical starfleet/klink chain of command. it would explain why we're able to refuse missions from admirals. how we're able to form our own fleets outside of starfleet's chain of command. why we can never be demoted. probably some other stuff as well.

Last edited by br3akingforce; 03-19-2013 at 09:35 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 232
# 19
03-20-2013, 05:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by br3akingforce View Post
are carrier battle groups not commanded by an admiral? yes, i understand that that's not just one ship, but when he commands a CBG, is he not also in command of his flagship?

edit: also, the command structure in star trek's universe is clearly different than that of modern militaries...i.e. i'd doubt that you'd see a lieutenant commanding a ship of the line...even a small one. also, in the modern military, (you'll have to confirm/deny this, because while i'm relatively sure, i'm not positive) there's a limit to the number of admirals there can be at any given moment, yes? *walks around esd, watching the crowds of admirals*

after-shower-edit: and for the record: i agree. having everyone be a vice admiral is weird. my suggestion would be something like this. section 13 and their klingon analogue (i dunno...klingon intelligence? i know they have to have a secret police or something) recruit us early on in our carreers (i know feds get missions where sec13 comes into play pretty hard, not sure on klink), and they give us ranks that're roughly equivalent to the current rank structure, but are named differently, and are technically outside and a step up from the typical starfleet/klink chain of command. it would explain why we're able to refuse missions from admirals. how we're able to form our own fleets outside of starfleet's chain of command. why we can never be demoted. probably some other stuff as well.
Yes there is a Fleet Admiral in charge of the battle group and yes he does have a flagship but he is not in command of his own flagship the Capt is. The Admiral is more of a VIP passenger who rarely comes aboard the Flagship. It isn't unusual for them to fly over the Pacific or Atlantic rather than make the crossing by ship. They don't spend much time out to sea and to be fair they have more than earned that right, they spend most of their time being diplomats when the battle group is on a 6mo cruise.

If you read the books and follow the movies and TV series closely you'll notice the closely follow our modern naval command structure. They use the same ranks as the ones I gave in my 1st post, why Cryptic deviated from this I don't know.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,068
# 20
03-20-2013, 06:23 AM
I think Cryptic did the rank structure the way they did to give the players a sense of accomplishment. Personally, I too would have been fine with the rank cap being that of Captain but allow the level to continue. I could see the Lt rank given command of a ship for the purpose of the arduous system patrols. Even the first two missions "Stranded in Space" and "Diplomatic Orders" would make sense. After all, what could go wrong on a rescue mission and a diplomatic courier mission? After that, you are being sent to the "front lines" as it were. They are talking about increasing the level cap to full Admiral. I do wish the npc would call you by your title but then it would be weird to see "Thank you for you help Moist Player."
If you believe the sky is the limit, you are aiming too low. We must reach beyond the stars - Ambassador Otungku
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