Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 535
# 291
03-20-2013, 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
I referred to this chart for how much you gain: http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skil...%20Effects.htm

As for increasing threat generation on all targets, regardless if you're firing on them, I have yet to see any information on this. Going by the wiki (http://www.stowiki.org/Skill:_Starship_Threat_Control), it simply increases the threat generation value per weapon hit on a single target, not targets you aren't firing on. If you're using a Torpedo Spread ability, well then I could see why you grabbed aggro on
Aggro is generated as an accumulating number, on the primary target first, then the other members of the spawn. Once aggro is gained it increases as a generated number that increases as damage is done. That is why threat mechanics work to reduce the aggro number or score towards 0 or upwards to infinity depending on role. STO, other than placates, doesn't seem to have a threat lowering role mechanic, only a threat increase mechanic. Once that spawn knows you are a threat they stay that way until someone else gets that aggro, steals it by out scoring you on threat, or you leave the spawn alone and it resets.

This is why high DPS and spike damage can cause escorts to steal aggro from a designated tank. IMO, its this poor mechanic that is the cause of much of the escort cruiser angst. But that is another subject.
Just say no to ARC
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,122
# 292
03-20-2013, 08:43 AM
Do you have any source you can cite? I haven't seen any info on this.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 293
03-20-2013, 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tancrediiv View Post
Aggro is generated as an accumulating number, on the primary target first, then the other members of the spawn. Once aggro is gained it increases as a generated number that increases as damage is done. That is why threat mechanics work to reduce the aggro number or score towards 0 or upwards to infinity depending on role. STO, other than placates, doesn't seem to have a threat lowering role mechanic, only a threat increase mechanic. Once that spawn knows you are a threat they stay that way until someone else gets that aggro, steals it by out scoring you on threat, or you leave the spawn alone and it resets.

This is why high DPS and spike damage can cause escorts to steal aggro from a designated tank. IMO, its this poor mechanic that is the cause of much of the escort cruiser angst. But that is another subject.
Actually the reason why the tank loses the aggro to the escort is because the hate is not instant but 'delivered' through weapons fire.

Escort doing 50k damage = 10 points of hate (just to use a fictional number to illustrate)
Tank doing 20k damage = 2 points of damage
Tank with threat 9 doing 20k damage = 50 points of hate.

My VoQuv is a great working example of both threat control 9 and non-threat control 9. I recently respeced out of threat control 9 and shoved the points into pure damage output.

Threat control 9 voquv was full beam arrays with dual feedback pulse and dual shield repair drones (along with every other shield& hull heal/resist ability there is). It had atk ptrn delta with the doff for aggro (came later on but the build works without him).

Non- threat control 9 voquv is pure torpedo plasma bomber. hyper plasma, omega, rom. exp. beam array and dual elite scorps. grav well 3. It does insane damage.

The differences hate-wise:

Theat control voquv could hit the ISE spheres+tac cube with FAW, slam RSVP+tac team and feedback pulse. All targets just focused their attacks on me. Escorts could literally park themselves in space and go bananas .. I still held hate. The trick was to keep AOE fire and feedback pulse so I kept hitting them. Threat control 9 exponentially increased the hate generation those weapons did.

Now, even when my FAW and feedback was on cooldown, they all kept hate on me.. even though the damage the beam arrays and feedback did was minimal compared to the massive blobs of damage being tossed at them by the multiple escorts doing cannon volley spread with all buffs to damage.

Since the hate is individual per npc and also shared with the NPC's grouping the entire set of spheres kept coming at me nonstop. Since I did not have elite fleet shields back then I had to use the KHG shield..which had the unfortunate effect of 1s placate so every now and then a sphere would stop shooting, break off and afterburn 10km away.. then come back and start hitting a team-mate.. until A single one of my beams hit it and he was back to hating me.

Atk delta with the doff however, generates INSTANT hate on everything around you. It doesnt even have to have shot you or you shot it. It seems to be just a 10km aoe hate ability. I added it to keep those spheres from breaking off from me.

This build ceased to function with the insane increase in superspike damage torpedoes and heavy plasma cannon..not even a ship completely maxed out to tank like mine could survive a 300k torpedo hit. It literally vaporized a 100% shield 100% hull 80% resist ship in that one hit.

So I speced out of threat control and turned the voquv into a very high damage ship.

By plasma bombing the voquv generates tremendous hate on a single target but not on the entire group. Even when firing torpedo spreads nonstop plus grav well hitting all of them, I do not hold aggro on all of them..only a few. This tells me the threat control literally boosts the hate shared within the group exponentially.


Finally, look at your chart. It says 8.6% extra armor resist. That is mighty insignificant bonus compared to what you get for armor boxes in engineering. Granted if you maxed those out then yeah, an extra 8% helps..but you are also receiving so, so much more damage due to aggro it really is not worth the points spent on it.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,122
# 294
03-20-2013, 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
The differences hate-wise:

Theat control voquv could hit the ISE spheres+tac cube with FAW, slam RSVP+tac team and feedback pulse. All targets just focused their attacks on me. Escorts could literally park themselves in space and go bananas .. I still held hate. The trick was to keep AOE fire and feedback pulse so I kept hitting them. Threat control 9 exponentially increased the hate generation those weapons did.

Now, even when my FAW and feedback was on cooldown, they all kept hate on me.. even though the damage the beam arrays and feedback did was minimal compared to the massive blobs of damage being tossed at them by the multiple escorts doing cannon volley spread with all buffs to damage.

Since the hate is individual per npc and also shared with the NPC's grouping the entire set of spheres kept coming at me nonstop. Since I did not have elite fleet shields back then I had to use the KHG shield..which had the unfortunate effect of 1s placate so every now and then a sphere would stop shooting, break off and afterburn 10km away.. then come back and start hitting a team-mate.. until A single one of my beams hit it and he was back to hating me.
You using FAW and torpedo spread abilities is why then entire group came after you. Since you generated the most threat against a group that other folks were not targetting, the NPCs will continue to attack you. If someone were to attack a different target in the group that you aggro'ed, it would break off and attack someone else. I have seen this happen many times.

In fact, even before I respeced my characters to put some points in Threat Control, I would pull aggro from one target and not others from that group. Other times, I've kited the NPCs while others got free hits on the ship for a good amount of time. I don't use scatter/spread abilities that often and do more single target damage. Perhaps that is the difference (which is also why I question the statement that Threat generation affects the entire group).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Atk delta with the doff however, generates INSTANT hate on everything around you. It doesnt even have to have shot you or you shot it. It seems to be just a 10km aoe hate ability. I added it to keep those spheres from breaking off from me.
This is the best trolling DOFF ever. I don't want to waste EC on the DOFF, but using it on your team mates out of spite sounds like a lot of fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
So I speced out of threat control and turned the voquv into a very high damage ship.

By plasma bombing the voquv generates tremendous hate on a single target but not on the entire group. Even when firing torpedo spreads nonstop plus grav well hitting all of them, I do not hold aggro on all of them..only a few. This tells me the threat control literally boosts the hate shared within the group exponentially.
Are your team mates hitting the other NPCs with spread abilities? That would seem like the likely reason why the other NPCs change their targets. In Hive, I've had a Tactical Cube I wasn't firing at come after me. Since no one else was hitting it, it continued to attack me (it initially started attacking me because I was the closest target or they killed my team mates before it got to me). Once someone else started attacking it, it immediately changed it's target.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Finally, look at your chart. It says 8.6% extra armor resist. That is mighty insignificant bonus compared to what you get for armor boxes in engineering. Granted if you maxed those out then yeah, an extra 8% helps..but you are also receiving so, so much more damage due to aggro it really is not worth the points spent on it.
Are you referring to the link I posted (which isn't my chart, by the way)? On my B'rel, which I recently respeced, I have, I believe, 6 points in Threat Control and Hull Plating, and 4 points in Armor Reinforcements. My total resistance is about 27%+ against energy and about 25%+ against kinetic with one Neutronium Alloy mk XI blue console. Before that, it was, I believe, around 23%+ for each. With a second Neutronium Alloy, the amount is more than when I was maxed out in Hull Plating and Armor Reinforcement. The difference wasn't as great between one and two Neutronium Alloys, but the end result was still more.

FYI, for those who don't know, Neutronium Alloys have diminishing returns the more you stack. Also, the greater your passive resistance, the less effective the Neutronium Alloys become. I tested this while I was in the process of respeccing.

Last edited by shookyang; 03-20-2013 at 10:33 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 535
# 295
03-20-2013, 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
Do you have any source you can cite? I haven't seen any info on this.
http://www.stowiki.org/Aggro

The text states, "Aggro is understood to be the condition of a particular mob attacking a particular character, while threat is the numeric value that each attacker has towards each character on its threat list. The basic behavior of aggro is controlled by the rules outlined below. Some mobs will have secondary attacks which have different targeting procedures; even for a normal creature, the target who has aggro is not necessarily the player highest on its threat list. Managing aggro is one of the most important aspects of grouping because it determines how much damage the group receives and where the damage ends up."

These are the general principles I have always viewed as occurring in both STO and CO. Shoot on member of a spawn, in moments the whole spawn activates. They will initially attack the first shooter. We will observe, however, that if others members of the shooters team then fire on different members of the same spawn, those NPCs are draw to their primary attacker. If that one member attacking one of those NPCs then uses an AoE and accidentally hits a member of a different spawn we see that one NPC from the first spawn and the whole second spawn go after them. I would say this is conclusive and holds true to the general view of aggro and threat.
Just say no to ARC
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,122
# 296
03-20-2013, 10:55 AM
While the initial aggro may be true, there is no evidence that having Threat Control or high threat generation would mean that the entire group would only go after the player that is targeting one NPC in the group, and not go after other team mates that are hitting the other NPCs that are targeting them or hitting them with AOE abilities.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 297
03-20-2013, 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
You using FAW and torpedo spread abilities is why then entire group came after you. Since you generated the most threat against a group that other folks were not targetting, the NPCs will continue to attack you. If someone were to attack a different target in the group that you aggro'ed, it would break off and attack someone else. I have seen this happen many times.
No, you don't get it. It was my beam array (blue mk 11 since I just use min wep power anyway) in FAW once and no torp spread (full beam voquv..torp voquv is the no-threat control version) vs. my entire team's damage output including several escorts spewing cannon volley fire nonstop.

I kept the hate on all of them. If no threat control that would not happen. Thing is, if threat control only added threat per weapon strike then each individual npc the faw hit once or twice (very,very low damage) would have inflicted a relatively decent amount of threat. However, when an escort spews cannon at said individual npc and shreds it to pieces the hate is definitely greater than my beam array plus feedback pulse combined. Heck one single damage hit from the cannon outdamages all my weapons plus feedback.

This and other instances where I observe the npc behavior is why I say threat control does seem to put heavy hate bonus on the entire group. If my FAW hits multiples in the group their hate gets shared and stacked on each other.. a LOT LOT more than if i had no threat control and just FAW'd them. Its enough hate to keep them all firing at me and not my super-damage escorts firing aoe cannon at them.

Think of it this way:

No threat control, 1 beam hit on single target= 10 hate to individual npc, 2 hate shared to its group.
threat control 9, 1 beam hit on single target = 40 hate to individual npc, 40 hate shared to its group.

with FAW the multiple beam strikes stack on the individual and stacks equally to the entire group when there is threat control.
with FAW the multiple beam strikes stack on the individual and a fraction of that stacked hate is shared between the group.

Result? the entire group hates the threat control player a lot more than one single, very high damage escort hitting it and its friends in AOE.

But.. if you hit only a single target of the group with threat control 9 the hate you generate and that it shares with the group would not overcome the hate from the high damage aoe escort. Only when the threat control ship fires aoe is when it does.

Quote:
In fact, even before I respeced my characters to put some points in Threat Control, I would pull aggro from one target and not others from that group. Other times, I've kited the NPCs while others got free hits on the ship for a good amount of time. I don't use scatter/spread abilities that often and do more single target damage. Perhaps that is the difference (which is also why I question the statement that Threat generation affects the entire group).
Thats because you're hitting just one. the shared aggro may not have been enough to pull the other npcs off the heavier damage they are receiving. But if you hit all of them with low damage and threat control you become their primary source of hate. This doesnt happen if you just had no threat control... your single target-pulling hate proves it.

Quote:
This is the best trolling DOFF ever. I don't want to waste EC on the DOFF, but using it on your team mates out of spite sounds like a lot of fun.
Yep always a hoot to keep it on the guy that messed up everything. in the end his hull is a nice long list of injuries XD

Quote:
Are your team mates hitting the other NPCs with spread abilities? That would seem like the likely reason why the other NPCs change their targets. In Hive, I've had a Tactical Cube I wasn't firing at come after me. Since no one else was hitting it, it continued to attack me (it initially started attacking me because I was the closest target or they killed my team mates before it got to me). Once someone else started attacking it, it immediately changed it's target.
Of course they are. when was the last time you saw escorts in stf not using aoe?

Quote:
Are you referring to the link I posted (which isn't my chart, by the way)? On my B'rel, which I recently respeced, I have, I believe, 6 points in Threat Control and Hull Plating, and 4 points in Armor Reinforcements. My total resistance is about 27%+ against energy and about 25%+ against kinetic with one Neutronium Alloy mk XI blue console. Before that, it was, I believe, around 23%+ for each. With a second Neutronium Alloy, the amount is more than when I was maxed out in Hull Plating and Armor Reinforcement. The difference wasn't as great between one and two Neutronium Alloys, but the end result was still more.

FYI, for those who don't know, Neutronium Alloys have diminishing returns the more you stack. Also, the greater your passive resistance, the less effective the Neutronium Alloys become. I tested this while I was in the process of respeccing.
A minimal increase in resists (im not saying it doesnt!) for the expenditure of points and added pain coming into your bird of prey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
While the initial aggro may be true, there is no evidence that having Threat Control or high threat generation would mean that the entire group would only go after the player that is targeting one NPC in the group, and not go after other team mates that are hitting the other NPCs that are targeting them or hitting them with AOE abilities.
My tank version voquv is proof enough. Like I said, I would get their hate completely to the point where my team just sat in space firing like crazy. The only times they got hit was when the tac cube did an AOE. Spheres all focused on me exclusively the entire team. Now, as evidence? min power beam arrays on faw1 and feedback pulse combined do less than 3k dmg per target per firing cycle. An escort does ten times that much per cycle in aoe. The voquv with threat control held all hate. In contrast, my torp spread/plasma bomber voquv that does insanely higher aoe damage than the tank voquv, hits all targets for over 10k dmg per volley.... loses aggro constantly to these same escorts firing aoe cannon. All because it does not have threat control.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg

Last edited by cmdrskyfaller; 03-20-2013 at 11:44 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,122
# 298
03-20-2013, 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
No, you don't get it. It was my beam array (blue mk 11 since I just use min wep power anyway) in FAW once and no torp spread (full beam voquv..torp voquv is the no-threat control version) vs. my entire team's damage output including several escorts spewing cannon volley fire nonstop.

I kept the hate on all of them. If no threat control that would not happen. Thing is, if threat control only added threat per weapon strike then each individual npc the faw hit once or twice (very,very low damage) would have inflicted a relatively decent amount of threat. However, when an escort spews cannon at said individual npc and shreds it to pieces the hate is definitely greater than my beam array plus feedback pulse combined. Heck one single damage hit from the cannon outdamages all my weapons plus feedback.

This and other instances where I observe the npc behavior is why I say threat control does seem to put heavy hate bonus on the entire group. If my FAW hits multiples in the group their hate gets shared and stacked on each other.. a LOT LOT more than if i had no threat control and just FAW'd them. Its enough hate to keep them all firing at me and not my super-damage escorts firing aoe cannon at them.

Think of it this way:

No threat control, 1 beam hit on single target= 10 hate to individual npc, 2 hate shared to its group.
threat control 9, 1 beam hit on single target = 40 hate to individual npc, 40 hate shared to its group.

with FAW the multiple beam strikes stack on the individual and stacks equally to the entire group when there is threat control.
with FAW the multiple beam strikes stack on the individual and a fraction of that stacked hate is shared between the group.

Result? the entire group hates the threat control player a lot more than one single, very high damage escort hitting it and its friends in AOE.

But.. if you hit only a single target of the group with threat control 9 the hate you generate and that it shares with the group would not overcome the hate from the high damage aoe escort. Only when the threat control ship fires aoe is when it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Thats because you're hitting just one. the shared aggro may not have been enough to pull the other npcs off the heavier damage they are receiving. But if you hit all of them with low damage and threat control you become their primary source of hate. This doesnt happen if you just had no threat control... your single target-pulling hate proves it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
My tank version voquv is proof enough. Like I said, I would get their hate completely to the point where my team just sat in space firing like crazy. The only times they got hit was when the tac cube did an AOE. Spheres all focused on me exclusively the entire team. Now, as evidence? min power beam arrays on faw1 and feedback pulse combined do less than 3k dmg per target per firing cycle. An escort does ten times that much per cycle in aoe. The voquv with threat control held all hate. In contrast, my torp spread/plasma bomber voquv that does insanely higher aoe damage than the tank voquv, hits all targets for over 10k dmg per volley.... loses aggro constantly to these same escorts firing aoe cannon. All because it does not have threat control.
But Threat Control on it's own against a single target in a group will not necessarily keep you in the groups target. That is my original point several posts before.

It makes sense that if you have high Threat Control and using AOE abilities, you're going to keep aggro on yourself until someone on your team creates enough threat generation on their own to get an NPC to change its target.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Of course they are. when was the last time you saw escorts in stf not using aoe?
I think this is the source of our disagreement. I rarely use AOE attacks in my B'rel or Fleet Defiant. I prefer maximum damage on a single target to kill that target quickly. Since others are using their AOE attacks, the next target in the group will be easier for me to finish off in one volley with minimal buffs.

So, from my observations as someone who only targets single targets, Threat Control does not increase threat generation of the entire group for a sustained amount of time. Which is why I'm not concerned about a single NPC targeting me (if it's the invisible torpedo, I'm space dust either way, as I still manage to generate enough aggro without Threat Control).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
A minimal increase in resists (im not saying it doesnt!) for the expenditure of points and added pain coming into your bird of prey.
I'd prefer not to use up too many console spaces for Alloys. I used to run two consoles, but the amount I was getting from the second console was about 8% (this was before I respeced...after, it was about 6%).

But, I suppose if you are using AOE attacks as your primary attack, then I could see how Threat Control would be a bad idea. Since I don't use AOE attacks, it's not as big a concern for me.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 535
# 299
03-20-2013, 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
While the initial aggro may be true, there is no evidence that having Threat Control or high threat generation would mean that the entire group would only go after the player that is targeting one NPC in the group, and not go after other team mates that are hitting the other NPCs that are targeting them or hitting them with AOE abilities.
Actually, as the Wiki quotes states, once aggro is attained, the threat generation race begins. As long as the one with aggro keeps doing damage and stays ahead of their team mates threat generation score they will keep aggro. This is why threat consoles and threat works. I don't see any evidence to support your claim. I do see the opposite implied in the wiki reference and in practice. It is how tanking works.

Edit: You are correct in saying someone can steal aggro by attacking one of those aggro'd NPCs, but it is done by generating more threat than the first shooter has generated. In the mean time he who shot first and generated threat is wearing milk bone underwear and its a dog eat dog world.
Just say no to ARC

Last edited by tancrediiv; 03-20-2013 at 01:58 PM. Reason: Last part needed to answer question
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 300
03-21-2013, 06:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
But Threat Control on it's own against a single target in a group will not necessarily keep you in the groups target. That is my original point several posts before.

It makes sense that if you have high Threat Control and using AOE abilities, you're going to keep aggro on yourself until someone on your team creates enough threat generation on their own to get an NPC to change its target.
That depends really. The question is, are you doing that high a damage that the 'shared' aggro overcomes the aoe spammers?

In my B'rel I know that I keep the hate of the entire sphere group in ISE for a good while when I open up on one lonely sphere in the group first (before anyone in the team). I know this because when I return to do a 2nd pass and I decloak, all the spheres in its group, even though they had aggro on team-mates that are shooting at them, the entire sphere group swaps its aggro to me. I usually have to stay cloaked a bit longer and let my team add up their damage so i dont get instant aggro from multiples.

Also, a tank ship with threat control does not use single target fire. I guess we were both seeing this from different perspectives.


Quote:
So, from my observations as someone who only targets single targets, Threat Control does not increase threat generation of the entire group for a sustained amount of time. Which is why I'm not concerned about a single NPC targeting me (if it's the invisible torpedo, I'm space dust either way, as I still manage to generate enough aggro without Threat Control).
My experience is different. In my b'rel that has never had threat control I still keep the aggro of the npc group for a good while even if my team of other escorts shoot it.

I think it has to do with torpedo damage..or the damage for hate purposes as being read as 'gross output' not 'net applied' damage ( aka, torpedo hits npc shields for 100 (10,000) dmg.. the hate may be based off the 10k number not the 100). I know I do not experience the hate retention of my b'rel in my single target cannon hegh'ta.

But even in the cannon bop I still would not use threat control. Forbids me from flying aoe high dmg ships since id be forced to tank in them.

Quote:
But, I suppose if you are using AOE attacks as your primary attack, then I could see how Threat Control would be a bad idea. Since I don't use AOE attacks, it's not as big a concern for me.
If it works for you its fine. I personally disagree with the use of threat control for birds of prey.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:45 AM.