Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,917
# 11
03-17-2013, 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Cheese is something that is either broken, or obviously overpowered. Not using something because it isn't useful isn't -- and by definition can never be -- cheese... did I really just need to say that? Come on, buddy. Go read The Jorf Guide and see if that helps right your crooked thinking.
Well I didn't give you much but a one liner to work with. My thinking is... if we are going to impose rules on ourselves all the time saying X skill or X console or no more then Y. We do it because we don't feel they add to the game.

The complete removal of Engi from the game field is imo just as broken as any of other things any of us feel should not be included in a team game.

Perhaps calling 3 sci 2 tac cheese goes a little far. Still I think we all know it feels a little wrong to remove on captain type from out premades completely. It feels just as broken as tractor beam spamming toys to me.

Ideal team setup right now of course engi makes little sense. Still we are glad to out law boff skills and doffs and consoles because we feel they break the game in some way... I think every team choosing to drop the engi class in favor of another nuke is just as broken as slotting a 30s gravity pulse.

I have no doubt you guys will always do well no matter the rules its about mind set more then anything... I agree with you all the way. But if we are going to impose rules on anything... why should the hard sci team setup not get a look at.

In terms of toruny rules in general... I have always liked the "Max 2 captain types" rule. To me it just feels right and almost makes it like a regulation setup in any sport... where teams field the proper amount of each player at each position.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 881
# 12
03-17-2013, 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Perhaps calling 3 sci 2 tac cheese goes a little far. Still I think we all know it feels a little wrong to remove on captain type from out premades completely.
Of course it feels wrong! One out of the three career types has been made worthless through a series of short sighted decisions from Cryptic. That's terrible, bordering on offensive design. I'm all for making engineers useful again, but it's up to Cryptic to fix -- not up to us to keep taking things that don't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
I think every team choosing to drop the engi class in favor of another nuke is just as broken as slotting a 30s gravity pulse.
Personally, I don't agree much on the "limit of x per team" mentality. Either it's broken or it's not, but I do understand why people deem those types of rules necessary and usually don't complain about them. That being said, before engineers were made useless half the teams were running 1 tac, 1 eng, 3 sci. The other half were running 2 tac, 1 eng, 2 sci, so that engineer wasn't always dropped for another science captain. Hell, I'd rather take three tacs and two sci's than an engineer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 246
# 13
03-17-2013, 02:29 PM
Belive it or not tacticals have been the most useless class also, It changes because the game changes. Anyhow I dont like this voting system. Organizers need to make the rules and see who wants to play. I myself think the current meta game with backsteping healers and alpha strike is the only thing viable is abit boring, and wouldn't choose participate.

Banning consoles and powers, ships whatever should always be a something on the table..

Sense cryptic frankly can't balance Premade - pvp or pvp in general.
Noone.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,917
# 14
03-17-2013, 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Of course it feels wrong! One out of the three career types has been made worthless through a series of short sighted decisions from Cryptic. That's terrible, bordering on offensive design. I'm all for making engineers useful again, but it's up to Cryptic to fix -- not up to us to keep taking things that don't work.
I agree with you it is crazy that we are always compensating for Cryptics terrible ideas with rules... its even funnier when you consider what happened not long ago when they sort of got behinds a turny that broke down due to rule arguments. There system is badly balanced we all agree... (perhaps not as bad as some people go on about still)

By your reasoning of course there should be no rules period. We should just play the game we have and be happy. I don't think a rule on team make up is any different then a rule on console composition.

Still point is we agree... Cryptic is at fault as per normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Personally, I don't agree much on the "limit of x per team" mentality. Either it's broken or it's not, but I do understand why people deem those types of rules necessary and usually don't complain about them. That being said, before engineers were made useless half the teams were running 1 tac, 1 eng, 3 sci. The other half were running 2 tac, 1 eng, 2 sci, so that engineer wasn't always dropped for another science captain. Hell, I'd rather take three tacs and two sci's than an engineer.
Indeed... no team ever ran more then on engi. I always thought of the team engi as the goal keeper. You don't need or want more then one.... just one to save the teams bacon when the D breaks down.

I agree with you as well... the perfect team designed to win would run Zero engi... 3 tac or 3 sci... both can work. Both will work better then an 1 engi most likely within the current tame meta.

My point is of course... the team with 5 graviton pulse consoles will do better then the team with zero... we make a rule against that.

I don't really see how limiting captain types is any different then limiting consoles or skills.

Regardless. I do also see your point that for practicality right now... not many teams are going to have a practiced quality engi ready to go... let alone a have a proper bench warmer just in case.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 75
# 15
03-17-2013, 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbspt View Post
...why not eject warp plasma.... i agree with the theta but the plasma comon....
if you have lag put the graphics to minimum... ive been on matches with high plasma stuff and didnt lag at all with graphics on medium... its not my fault your computer is lame
normlay the problem with warp plasma is not the lag, but it is often enough invisible, if there a 2 or 3 ae effects running (warp plasma, grav well, tykens rift, ...)
an annoying problem with the engine :/
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 881
# 16
03-17-2013, 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
By your reasoning of course there should be no rules period.
Let me reiterate my viewpoint. Banning overpowered things is good, forcing teams to use underpowered things isn't. I'd be equally against a rule that said you needed a minimum of two copies of Jam Sensors on a team

Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
My point is of course... the team with 5 graviton pulse consoles will do better then the team with zero... we make a rule against that.

I don't really see how limiting captain types is any different then limiting consoles or skills.
A tactical or science captain isn't inherently broken or overpowered like GPG or Temporal Inversion is. My viewpoint is that if something is broken you should ban it, if it isn't then you should allow it. That means I don't agree with "Max of X" rules (it should either be outright allowed, or not allowed) though I begrudgingly accept them most of the time. The difference between saying "max of three of the same career" (which I begrudgingly accept) and "max of two of the same career" (which I absolutely do not accept) is that the later forces you to take a career that currently has no place in PvP, and thus strays too far from the real world. It's not just an unintended side effect of the rule, but the primary reason for it. The difference is that wording a rule "max of X of a career type" sounds a lot better than "you must take an engineer" or "you can't take more than three science captains", despite the fact we both know that's what people really mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Regardless. I do also see your point that for practicality right now... not many teams are going to have a practiced quality engi ready to go... let alone a have a proper bench warmer just in case.
Let alone having both of them properly ground up with the rep crap and all the other power creep.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 636
# 17
03-17-2013, 02:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lascaille View Post
normlay the problem with warp plasma is not the lag, but it is often enough invisible, if there a 2 or 3 ae effects running (warp plasma, grav well, tykens rift, ...)
an annoying problem with the engine :/
And this is the reason why we banned ewp and theta
| CSI - Confederazione Stellare Italiana | @NandoPC |
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 42
# 18
03-17-2013, 03:00 PM
Ok, i appreciate the criticism about the rules, but now, after all this posts, can we try to make this tournament a reality playing it? Lets try if it's "viable"
www.confederazionestellareitaliana.com
Premade Pvp Falchi Tricolori
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 677
# 19
03-18-2013, 01:03 PM
gsgsdgsdgsdgsdgsd

Last edited by darkfader1988; 03-18-2013 at 01:08 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,265
# 20
03-20-2013, 01:56 PM
My fleet needs to know when exactly the tournament date is. Weekend/weekday, time, etc.

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