Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 281
03-20-2013, 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pointedears View Post
This thread is still going... *snip*
Forgive the snip, but your post was rather long. And much of what you said is depressingly correct. But a lot of it was also wrong. Many of us aren't here to "make ourselves uber" as you seem to think, but we're instead here trying to figure out why one weapon is so badly gimped. And it is gimped.

Let's take a look at your standard Beam Array. The base DPS of a standard mk X BA is around 200. It has a drain of -10 energy when fired in tandem with other weapons. It also has a 250 degree firing arc. So overall, it's not a terrible weapon. Until you take a look at every other factor. First off, BAs are hardly ever used on their own. Seeing fewer than 4 BAs on a ship just doesn't happen. In fact in many cases, you tend to see six or seven (depending on if the cruiser has the KCB).

So one thinks, oh ok, that's 60 power drain, it's manageable. Yes and no. Even if you constantly cycle an EPtW3, you will hard cap your weapons power at 150, and you will drop to 85 or 90 every time you do a full broadside with 6 beams, 75-80 if you use 7. That's an awfully HUGE energy drain. Compared to their partners in crime, the DHC with their 12 energy drain, but MUCH SHORTER FIRING CYCLE, it just gets obscene. Comparing a standard fully cannonscort to a full BA cruiser:

DHCx4 + Turretx2 + KCB/Another turret ~ 72 power drain.

8 BA ~ 80 power drain.

So it's about equal. Or is it?

Your standard DHC at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 1200-1500 damage (depending on consoles etc). Your standard turret at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 500-800 damage (again depending on consoles etc). Your standard BA at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 800-1000 damage (again dependent on consoles etc). So all things considered, two BAs vs a DHC + turret are about equal (~1600-2k vs ~ 1700-2300). UNTIL YOU BRING POWER DRAIN INTO THE EQUATION.

For some whacked reason, it was decided that even a TINY power drain would have a severe effect on beam array damage. It's something ludicrous, like for each 10 power, the BAs damage level drops by 20%. So at 100 weapons power, each BA is hitting for ~ 200% damage, at 125 they are hitting for ~ 250% damage. However, drop them by even 20 power below 100 (like what you will see with a standard 6-7 BA broadside, 7 actually dropping it by more like 30), and suddenly you're only hitting for 140-160% damage. Which would be acceptable... except for the fact that there seems to be some kind of bug or something in the system that actually drops it to more like 125-130% damage. Which brings your average BA hit down to around 500 when your weapons power is at 75.

Then we look at DHCs. Same system, but their damage does not appear to be as heavily affected by power levels. A DHC hitting at 100 weapons power will easily deal 200% damage, and at 125 seems to be closer to 270-280%. But drop it by the same amount, and it doesn't lose nearly as much damage as a BA.

The lowest I have ever seen my BAs hit for is 120% damage, even fully overclocked (again, against a target with no skills using a captain with no skills, both ships had no consoles, 6 standard mk 1 WHITE BAs at 2k range, weapons power overclocked maxed at 150 (hit an EPtW3, but allowed for 15 seconds to pass so there was no damage bonus from the BOff ability, also hit an EPS transfer bonus to be sure my weapons power was as high as possible)). My weapons power at the end of that broadside was at 80-85. I then did the same thing with DHCs + turrets, fully overclocked, same conditions, everything the same, and my power level dropped to roughly the same levels. But my DHCs were still hitting for 150% damage.

So DHCs hit a lot harder. DUH. They are supposed to, I have no illusions to otherwise. But really? Hitting THAT much harder? That seems a little off to me. But this just base white junk. Move on to full mk XII purple equipment, and the gap grows ridiculously. A mk XII purple DHC with full buffs on itself and full debuffs on a target will EASILY hit for 12-15k PER SHOT. Do the same with a BA... and you will usually only hit 5-6k per shot max. Firing arcs? Pssssh. Ships that use DHCs are so nimble that firing arcs aren't much of an issue. Range mitigation? That's the ONLY thing BAs have right now that makes them even slightly more useful than DHCs. DHCs from 10k out suffer from a ~60% damage penalty, beams only ~40%. But the DHCs hit so much harder, that seems almost a null point.

So yes, we want better BAs. We don't want them to hit as hard as DHCs (that's just stupid), but don't want them to be as horribly weak as they are now (cuz let's face it, that's just stupid too), or if they are to be so horribly weak, at least let there be a decent reason for it.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,909
# 282
03-20-2013, 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Your standard DHC at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 1200-1500 damage (depending on consoles etc). Your standard turret at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 500-800 damage (again depending on consoles etc). Your standard BA at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 800-1000 damage (again dependent on consoles etc). So all things considered, two BAs vs a DHC + turret are about equal (~1600-2k vs ~ 1700-2300). UNTIL YOU BRING POWER DRAIN INTO THE EQUATION.
Also need to factor in the narrower firing arc of DHCs vs BAs. BAs can maintain fire on a target longer while Escorts will need to maneuver to keep their cannons on target.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 283
03-20-2013, 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by valoreah View Post
Also need to factor in the narrower firing arc of DHCs vs BAs. BAs can maintain fire on a target longer while Escorts will need to maneuver to keep their cannons on target.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Firing arcs? Pssssh. Ships that use DHCs are so nimble that firing arcs aren't much of an issue.
If by maneuver you mean put engine speed at 1/4 and then turn? Then yes, they need to maneuver. And that's SUCH a hardship.

-.-

To steal someone's sig: Kittens are cute. Your argument is invalid.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,936
# 284
03-20-2013, 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sohtoh View Post
I can buy that the UI doesn't update properly, however the DPS per beam also reflects (what I perceive as) extra drain.

Projected Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 153: 873.49
Actual Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 153: 393.2

Projected Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 168: 908.96
Actual Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 168: 458.74

While I do not expect the Average DPS per Beam to actually equal the Projected, but it should be closer than what the Actual is showing.

So I don't think this is just an observational error on my part and it does lead me to believe that there is something wrong with the drain mechanic for beams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I have done some stat finding (I created a spreadsheet to calculate damage and DPS of various weapons and it's fairly accurate, though incomplete) and my results are as follows

Scenario: All weapons Mk X Common. 8 Beam arrays vs 4 DHCs, Power level: 145, Starship weapons skill: 9 + Omega rep, starship energy weapons: 9

Beam arrays (32 shots)
Damage: 17,742.66
DPS: 3,458.53

DHCs (32 shots)
Damage: 29,532.1
DPS: 9,844.04

Again, not 100% accurate but it is within 100 points on any given figure.

Any shots fired at over 125 power are counted as 125 due to how the power works in that regard all shots fired with no buffs
It is because you are both making false assumptions about what over-capping power does, along with the rest of the community.

I will keep it simple. Three beams, 135 power (so 10 over cap) this is how your shots will be. Beams are A, B, C, shot 1, 2, 3, 4.

A1 @ 125
B1 @ 115
C1 @ 105
Now the 10 power jumps back into the system
A2-4 @ 115
B2-4 @ 105
C2-4 @ 95
OR
Possibility not sure
A, B, & C 3-4 @ 95


This is why it does nothing for DHCs. This is why it does little for cannons compared to what it does for beams. And this is why power drain is so much stronger. Power overcapping will never allow two weapons to fire at 125 power.

But how does one test this? Over cap with various energy types and parse the results.
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Last edited by bareel; 03-20-2013 at 03:53 PM. Reason: brain fart
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,890
# 285
03-20-2013, 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
It is because you are both making false assumptions about what over-capping power does, along with the rest of the community.

I will keep it simple. Three beams, 135 power (so 10 over cap) this is how your shots will be. Beams are A, B, C, shot 1, 2, 3, 4.

A1 @ 125
B1 @ 115
C1 @ 105
Now the 10 power jumps back into the system
A2-4 @ 115
B2-4 @ 105
C2-4 @ 95
OR
Possibility not sure
A, B, & C 3-4 @ 95


This is why it does nothing for DHCs. This is why it does little for cannons compared to what it does for beams. And this is why power drain is so much stronger. Power overcapping will never allow two weapons to fire at 125 power.

But how does one test this? Over cap with various energy types and parse the results.
That makes sense, so I'm not too far wrong with my figures, I will do some further testing if I can get the motivation to pick up that spreadsheet and work on it again and make any required adjustments.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 182
# 286
03-20-2013, 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
It is because you are both making false assumptions about what over-capping power does, along with the rest of the community.

I will keep it simple. Three beams, 135 power (so 10 over cap) this is how your shots will be. Beams are A, B, C, shot 1, 2, 3, 4.

A1 @ 125
B1 @ 115
C1 @ 105
Now the 10 power jumps back into the system
A2-4 @ 115
B2-4 @ 105
C2-4 @ 95
OR
Possibility not sure
A, B, & C 3-4 @ 95


This is why it does nothing for DHCs. This is why it does little for cannons compared to what it does for beams. And this is why power drain is so much stronger. Power overcapping will never allow two weapons to fire at 125 power.

But how does one test this? Over cap with various energy types and parse the results.
Ok, did some number crunching on what you posted. That is more inline with what I am seeing. I used a 7 Beam build for comparison.

With 7 Beams at 125 power no overcapping, I should expect an average DPS per beam to be about 587.
With 7 Beams at 160 power with overcapping, I should expect an average DPS per beam to be about 804. This was used just for comparison.

I was able to run two tests with 7 Beams. One with overcapping, and one without.
Without overcapping and 7 beams I saw an average DPS per beam of 380.
With overcapping and 7 beams I saw an average DPS per beam of 467.

The overall encounter DPS without overcapping was 5886.21
The overall encounter DPS with overcapping was 7721.24

Overcapping or not, the method you posted was more accurate.

There does appear to be some benefit with overcapping regardless.

Further testing will be required. Will take me a few days to do so, as I work the next few days.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 287
03-20-2013, 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
For some whacked reason, it was decided that even a TINY power drain would have a severe effect on beam array damage. It's something ludicrous, like for each 10 power, the BAs damage level drops by 20%.
It's power drain duty cycles, pure and simple. Dual heavies only drain power 25% of the time so you will get cannons firing with their power drains out of sequence. You may have 4 dual heavy cannons firing "at the same time", but each one spends the majority of its time NOT draining power. Versus beams which drain power 80% of the time and where it is literally impossible to have multiple beams without stacking multiple drains on eachother.

Though if we want to be entirely correct about this: Since I already pointed this issue out to Cryptic and they dismissed it as "working as designed", the problem isn't beams. The problem is Cryptic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 165
# 288
03-20-2013, 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
Since I already pointed this issue out to Cryptic and they dismissed it as "working as designed", the problem isn't beams. The problem is Cryptic.
The question being, how to persuade Cryptic that the design isn't good?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,691
# 289
03-21-2013, 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
If by maneuver you mean put engine speed at 1/4 and then turn? Then yes, they need to maneuver. And that's SUCH a hardship.

-.-
That's sadly a function of the game engine and damage scaling. If escorts really had to do damage in passes then DHCs would have to do several times their current DPS to make up for the loss of uptime. That would move the baseline of what a ship would need to able to survive way higher than it is right now... both for PCs and NPCs... which then would push beam and torp/mine damage up as well but all that would do is bum up the extremes. Its a balancing nightmare to even think about it. Having to balance extreme spike vs sustained would become unfeasable, so instead they fudge it. DHC spike isn't as high and DHCs provide more of a constant DPS without having to rely on passes.

Also, all that extra moving around escorts does require effort. In my engi cruiser movement isn't really a concern beyond not stopping and keeping it turning.

Besides, when moving at 1/4 impulse escorts aren't getting much of their vaunted mobility defense are they?


Quote:
Originally Posted by graleron View Post
The question being, how to persuade Cryptic that the design isn't good?
Easy, you don't because you can't. You'd be trying to convince them that a system isn't working as intended, which it is. Instead you need to show Cryptic that defenses have increased across the board on PCs and NPCs and even with the best weapons the current metagame calls for a little more damage than cruisers can do right now. You aren't asking for a huge change, just a small boost. It could as simple as simply giving all cruisers a little extra power to weapons if you wanted to keep to the beam drain argument.

I think this has teh greatest chance of success since Cryptic has already seen it as a possible solution. Why else do you think the very first Rep grinds offer a beam array that costs no weapon power and a 360 weapon that procs EXTRA weapon power?

Last edited by skyranger1414; 03-21-2013 at 02:43 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 220
# 290
03-21-2013, 03:17 AM
[quote=hereticknight085;8688511] snipped [quote]


Thank you HereticKnight for a well constructed post. Makes a refreshing change to read a well thought out and constructive post for once. I amdit I was a little crude in the way I expressed myself so apologies but again thank you for a refreshing and well worded post.

My point I was trying to get across is yes beams do need to be overhauled, but the answer isn't to nerf cannons and escorts as a lot of cruiser players would like.

Im sure if every cruiser pilot was being honest, they just want to see escorts and sci ships nerfed so their ship is the "superior" ship.

I also don't believe geckos ill thought out idea of addind consoles, warp cores etc etc is the answer either.

Ive got my constructive hat on so heres my constructive post for the day

1) Decrease energy drain on beams ..... decrease the drain but increase the firing rate. If you watch all battle scenes from DS9 the beam firing was short sharp and rapid. As well as decreasing energy drain I would also propose increasing damage as well. Not by much, say by an extra 10% on mk 12 and scale it down.

Watch this video and you will see what I mean :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-trPu637dS0

2) Add additional beam boff powers for example :

Beam rapid fire .... targets one enemy (unlike fire at will) and allows short sharp rapid beam firing.

Beam 360 ...... shoots a beam in one plane at say 20 degree angles and does a 360 degree around the arc of your ship. Kinda like when picard was trying to find the scimitar when it was cloaked.

Beam scatter volley ... unlike fire at will focuses on a cone infront of you unlike fire at will which can spread the beam arc to multiple targets

3) The distance at which beams do damage could also be adjusted as well :

I don't have figures to hand but beam damage from what I remember increases the closer you get. So how about making that distance less ie you start doing low damage at 10 - 8 clicks, moderate damage at 8 -7 cliks, high damage at 7 - 0 clicks

4) Incorporate some mechanism into the game that can be player trained whereby players can increase the dmg modifier. At the moment the dmg modifier is useless, however like polaron weapons speccing into flow caps, maybe dmg modifier could be improved through one of the weapon skills.

I would rather focus on how beams could be improved than gimping other ships or weapons, because it snot the answer. I still stand by what I said. A lot of people don't know how to handle escorts due to inexperience or bad tactical and situational awareness.

As said by a previous poster, putting escorts into the same class as sci and gimping cannons, thereby gimping tacs and escorts, as sci has been gimped, is not the answer.

It still makes me sad that I have a 3 year old sci sitting in my character list that I cant play anymore.

Last edited by pointedears; 03-21-2013 at 03:20 AM.
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