Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,103
# 11
03-20-2013, 07:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I'm sorry but I think you have clearly missed the design intent apparent in Cruisers and Sci ships.

They are very much designed with role intents.
Really now? Explain the following please.

1) Majority of heals being Ensign level
2) Every ship having the same EHP from base
3) Lack of hyper specialization

And boff abilities? HA!

All 3 types have the following: Offensive, Defensive, CC, cleanses, etc, etc. If there is a design intent for roles it is the absolute worst I have ever seen.

Do you realize that when pushed to the absolute min/max limit escorts have the best damage mitigation/avoidance numbers in the game? They are the tanks if you push trinity.

And for weapon damage output? All weapon damage is based on a simple formula where the firing arc determines the damage. The only reason why beams are so sucktastic is because of the penalty the current (note not original) weapon power drain mechanics apply to them.

They can push the trinity all they want, until they either redesign 90% of the game systems and mechanics it will continue to fail. Encounter design is not the answer either (beyond Starbase Blockade style) as when you do push things to such limits you both alienate a large portion of your playerbase and still fail as the escort is the best tank. Higher avoidance, same exact mitigation, makes it the most efficient choice for spending any form of 'healing resource' on. And no the amusing armor slot will not change that either.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,757
# 12
03-20-2013, 08:03 AM
Role-based party system works fine for dungeon crawling games. We dont have that here. We have an open space game with casual parties. When you do the SP episodes, there is no NPC partying. When you do the MP pugs, there is no coordinated partying ("one healer slot open"). Ergo, party-based balance is COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE for this game.

What would be appropriate, is to use classes that are balanced to themselves. Think of, traditional COD, for example. You have an SMG that can sprint around (great for objective maps like capture the flag), a heavy MG that can lock down an approach, a sniper, etc. They are all capable of doing damage in different ways. This would work soo much better in the classless game environment we have now.

Anything you can do in private parties with trinity can be done with balanced classes too. You can have a tank and a healer, when you want them, without breaking the rest of the game.

edit--Trinity is not canon either. TOS, TNG, VOY, ENT, were all about one ship making its way, not about "where's my healer"

Trinity is wrong for this game. Period. It should be excised, from the space combat anyway.

Last edited by ursusmorologus; 03-20-2013 at 08:24 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 13
03-20-2013, 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Really now? Explain the following please.

1) Majority of heals being Ensign level
All of the best, major and game changing heals take place at Lt or Ltc and higher.

Aux to SIF
TSS 2 or 3
ST 3
ET 3
Extend Shields (not a heal, but preventative).

The rest are base functionality powers that all ships get access to the same as how all ships have access to low level tactical skills.

This is because this game is trinity light, and not strict trinity.

I'm not arguing for strict trinity, I'm arguing for the roles that Cruisers & Sci ships excel at to be supported by a PvE content environment that allows them a chance to shine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
2) Every ship having the same EHP from base
Sorry, EHP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
3) Lack of hyper specialization
Already covered, several times in several posts. This game is not strict trinity, and I'm not arguing for that.

I'll ask you to at the very least attempt to see this before we can really have a meaningful conversation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
All 3 types have the following: Offensive, Defensive, CC, cleanses, etc, etc. If there is a design intent for roles it is the absolute worst I have ever seen.
Already covered, again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Do you realize that when pushed to the absolute min/max limit escorts have the best damage mitigation/avoidance numbers in the game? They are the tanks if you push trinity.
Passives have pushed their limits extremely high, I argue against these for PvP balance.

On the other hand, anyone pretending that a fully selfish Cruiser build and a fully selfish Escort build have "the same" survivability is clearly misinformed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
And for weapon damage output? All weapon damage is based on a simple formula where the firing arc determines the damage. The only reason why beams are so sucktastic is because of the penalty the current (note not original) weapon power drain mechanics apply to them.
Feel free to take that up with Gecko, but I feel you've been extremely facetious strictly comparing an "Escort with Cannons vs. Escort with Beams" in the other thread.

Your post indicates that you think 250 degree arc weapons should ever be in the realm of a 45 degree arc weapon. They should not, and Gecko has already put his pronouncement on it. WAD.


You want to prove to me that escorts are the best tanks?

Ok, show me videos of all 4 elite STFs.

Make sure you have 6 ranks in threat control.

Use 7 beam arrays with BFAW, you're here for aggro control and not raw DPS after all.


Hold aggro for the entire team, the entire time.

Zipping around and staying alive while your friends explode is not "tanking".



There are a few superstar players I think can actually do this, but I want you to let me know if you think the average player could actually pull off the above.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,188
# 14
03-20-2013, 11:41 AM
I've never been convinced that this game was really designed to have a trinity system.

For one thing, heals are split between the 2 'support' classes (though which specialization focuses on shields, and which on hull/health, varies depending on what environment you are playing in).

Secondly, when the game launched, even the devs would talk about sci ships 'shield tanking', implying tanking was never meant to be the sole domain of cruisers; and of course, now we have 'speed tanking' too.

Thirdly, sci ships, as originally designed, were lethal combatants; quite capable of ripping other ships a new one. This was before torpedo boats were really a thing; they mostly did their damage with powers.

Point four, one the ground, engineers can greatly enhance their damage output with the aid of pets, turrets, and explosives; played correctly, they can be more dangerous than most tac builds.

Seems to me that STO was designed to be played any which way we wanted; it's changes since then that have tried to shoehorn in a trinity system (with results that are... mixed).
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,103
# 15
03-20-2013, 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
All of the best, major and game changing heals take place at Lt or Ltc and higher.

Aux to SIF
TSS 2 or 3
ST 3
ET 3
Extend Shields (not a heal, but preventative).

The rest are base functionality powers that all ships get access to the same as how all ships have access to low level tactical skills.

This is because this game is trinity light, and not strict trinity.

I'm not arguing for strict trinity, I'm arguing for the roles that Cruisers & Sci ships excel at to be supported by a PvE content environment that allows them a chance to shine.




Sorry, EHP?



Already covered, several times in several posts. This game is not strict trinity, and I'm not arguing for that.

I'll ask you to at the very least attempt to see this before we can really have a meaningful conversation.




Already covered, again.




Passives have pushed their limits extremely high, I argue against these for PvP balance.

On the other hand, anyone pretending that a fully selfish Cruiser build and a fully selfish Escort build have "the same" survivability is clearly misinformed.




Feel free to take that up with Gecko, but I feel you've been extremely facetious strictly comparing an "Escort with Cannons vs. Escort with Beams" in the other thread.

Your post indicates that you think 250 degree arc weapons should ever be in the realm of a 45 degree arc weapon. They should not, and Gecko has already put his pronouncement on it. WAD.


You want to prove to me that escorts are the best tanks?

Ok, show me videos of all 4 elite STFs.

Make sure you have 6 ranks in threat control.

Use 7 beam arrays with BFAW, you're here for aggro control and not raw DPS after all.


Hold aggro for the entire team, the entire time.

Zipping around and staying alive while your friends explode is not "tanking".



There are a few superstar players I think can actually do this, but I want you to let me know if you think the average player could actually pull off the above.
Check gateway for bugoo@Kreael to see what I tank with if you want. Granted all my toons end up tanking even if I don't want them too. This weekend I'll tank the STFs in a group with you if you really want to see it. And it is not that I am highly skilled (I'm a baddie skill wise) it is that I know how this game and it's mechanics work, that is all it takes.

And that is the thing about trinity, there is no such thing as soft trinity it doesn't work. Otherwise these discussions wouldn't be taking place. You can either trust me that no matter how they design the content trinity still will not work, or you can continue to think that the content is the problem. Considering this game has been out for how many years and it still has the same exact problem it always has, that being if partaking in any form of progression you should fly an escort, I don't see them finding the solution any time soon.

Oh and EHP is Effective Hit Points. It means total health when you factor in all the built in avoidance and mitigation a character/ship has. And yes, all 3 have the same within a single % from stock.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 47
# 16
03-21-2013, 12:46 AM
if you say trinity dont exest in sto, lats have a look:

character classes abilities:

tac:
atack pattern alpha - boost dmg (dps)
fire at my mark - dmg debuff (support)
tactical iniciative - self increase recharge of tac boff powers, respectivly increase dmg (dps)
go down fighting - self dmg buff (dps)

sci:
sensor scan - dmg debuff (support)
subnucleonic beam - clear buffs (support)
scatering field - increase team resist (support)
photonic fleet - give more targets npc to shoot at ( support)

eng:
rotate shield frequency - self heal+ resist (survival)
eps power transfer - self increase power levels (survival - it increase speed respectivly defence, shield power increase shield resistance and reg)
nadion reversion - self power levels resist buff (survival)
miracle worker - self hull shield heal (survival)

the last ability is team wide so ill include it as support for each class.

if you cant see some specialisation in this ...
more or less tac is specialised for dmg, sci for support, eng for survival, ie tank

lets take a look on ships

in general escorts have more tac consoles and boff station, which means greater boost to dps from consoles, and more dps oriented abilities.

sci ships, have more science consoles, and boff station which speaks for greater ability for control an heal skills.

crusers have more eng consoles which boost resistance, manuverability etc, boff stations too, which consist mostly from heals, resistance buffs and cleanise abilities

you cant deny there is specialisation here, not like in most games that use this model, but it still exist.

a cruser or sci cant match escort on dps, escort cant tank 20 enemies like i do in my cruser, escort cant heal others or contorl enemies like a sci ship can, nor the cruser.

altho i dont argue there is content in game that support using this specialisations, everything can be done in any ship, but character and ship specialisations still exist admit it or not.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,188
# 17
03-21-2013, 01:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningstar View Post
if you say trinity dont exest in sto, lats have a look:

character classes abilities:

tac:
atack pattern alpha - boost dmg (dps)
fire at my mark - dmg debuff (support)
tactical iniciative - self increase recharge of tac boff powers, respectivly increase dmg (dps)
go down fighting - self dmg buff (dps)

sci:
sensor scan - dmg debuff (support)
subnucleonic beam - clear buffs (support)
scatering field - increase team resist (support)
photonic fleet - give more targets npc to shoot at ( support)

eng:
rotate shield frequency - self heal+ resist (survival)
eps power transfer - self increase power levels (survival - it increase speed respectivly defence, shield power increase shield resistance and reg)
nadion reversion - self power levels resist buff (survival)
miracle worker - self hull shield heal (survival)

the last ability is team wide so ill include it as support for each class.

if you cant see some specialisation in this ...
more or less tac is specialised for dmg, sci for support, eng for survival, ie tank

lets take a look on ships

in general escorts have more tac consoles and boff station, which means greater boost to dps from consoles, and more dps oriented abilities.

sci ships, have more science consoles, and boff station which speaks for greater ability for control an heal skills.

crusers have more eng consoles which boost resistance, manuverability etc, boff stations too, which consist mostly from heals, resistance buffs and cleanise abilities

you cant deny there is specialisation here, not like in most games that use this model, but it still exist.

a cruser or sci cant match escort on dps, escort cant tank 20 enemies like i do in my cruser, escort cant heal others or contorl enemies like a sci ship can, nor the cruser.

altho i dont argue there is content in game that support using this specialisations, everything can be done in any ship, but character and ship specialisations still exist admit it or not.
There is specialization to a degree (though not a great degree, since we can put any officer in any ship); but it's not in a trinity pattern. 'Support' is not part of the trinity; but most of the strongest heals are engineering powers, so that's all science is left with as a specialization.
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 47
# 18
03-21-2013, 01:11 AM
noone said its a strict model, roles just differ,

tac is dd
eng is tank/heal
sci is support

you still have 3 different roles, isnt that trinity ?

edit: and healing it its nature is a supprt function, so you can look on trinity as: tank, dps and support, exactly what we got here.

Last edited by burningstar; 03-21-2013 at 02:00 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 19
03-21-2013, 02:14 AM
The following rules should apply:

A science ship has to be the most effective, if there are 2 escorts and 2 cruisers in the team.
A cruiser has to be most effective, if there are 2 science ships and 2 escorts in the team.
A escort has to be most effective, if there are 2 science ships and 2 cruisers in the team.

3,4,5 ships of the same type should have diminishing returns and weaken the team.

Ideally this should be done with a complex interaction of skills and abilities. If it is to complicated, they should do it the lazy way:

If you are the only science ship you get +50% to everything.
If you are the only cruiser you get +50% to everything.
If you are the only escort you get +50% to everything.

That way the best team is at least 3 escorts + cruiser + sci-ship. And there is some value in having sci-ship or cruiser in the team.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 47
# 20
03-21-2013, 02:18 AM
that will mean that current que system should be changed, if you get into a stf in team with 5 sci or 5 cruser ships, you wont accomplish anything, 5 escorts still can manage things, becouse nearly everting now is about dps, or on contrary entire game content should be changed.
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