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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,011
# 81
03-20-2013, 08:16 AM
Breen is no worse than any of the other one-hit methods out there. Yes its utterly stupid in PVP but I dont see how its any worse than decloaking alpha surprise buttsex or any of the other crutch techniques.

The whole game is out of control, no limits so people figure out exactly how to take stuff to ridiculous levels.

Want some balance, remove crits from PVP, for starters
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,496
# 82
03-20-2013, 08:25 AM
Pre S7, you might have been looking at the following:

Base +2.5%
Borg +0.92%
Tachyokinetic +0.76%
Projectile Specialization +2%
Max of ~3.57% from Accuracy Overflow

So you were looking at +6.18% to +9.75% CrtH or so...

S7 bumped that with:

Rom Passive +3% CrtH
Zero-Point Console +1.8% CrtH
Rom BOFFs +2-6% CrtH

Taking you to +10.98% to +16.98% CrtH or more...

That's for a weapon with no inherent CrtH mods.

And...that's just the CrtH side of things. What about CrtD? Again, no inherent CrtD mod.

Pre S7, you might have been looking at the following:

Base +50%
Borg +9.2%
Tachyokinetic +7.6%
Projectile Specialization +25%
Max of ~14.3% from Accuracy Overflow

So you were looking at +91.8% to +106.1% CrtD or so...

S7 bumped that with:

Rom BOFFs +5-15% CrtD

Taking you to +91.8% to +121.1% CrtD or more...

So in review, sort of, so to speak...

Pre-S7: +6.18% to +9.75% CrtH and +91.8% to +106.1% CrtD or more
Post-S7: +10.98% to +16.98% CrtH and +91.8% to +121.1% CrtD or more

Course, there's also going to be the +30 Weapons Training that will somewhat minutely boost base damage that changed with S7.

Oh yeah, that wasn't taking into account any abilities. Don't forget to add your APA, TacFleet (Accuracy Overflow), etc to it...

But there's also the other side that can't be forgotten...

The proliferation of Elite Fleet Shields.
The proliferation of Fed Elite Weapons with a shield heal proc.
The addition of the Enhanced Shield Systems passive.
The addition of the Emergency Secondary Shielding passive.
The addition of the Quantum Singularity Manipulation active.
The addition of the Superior Shield Repair passive.
The addition of Romulan Threat-Scaling Science Consoles with a Shield Heal proc.
The additional power (only +1.8) from the Romulan Zero-Point console.
The additional Power Insulators (+19.7) from the Romulan Zero-Point console.

One could say that they also added the Hull-Repairing Nanites passive and the Rom consoles can also proc a Hull Heal...but uh, yeah - nothing like the love Shields got.

So the combination of those two things...I'd say is why you're seeing more Breen Clusters in use (especially with the broken chain crit mechanics)...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 83
03-20-2013, 08:25 AM
i agree with ursus, 8k dps for a 33% chace to hit the 10 mines is not that much compared to the dps a tactical can make in the cluster's cooldown

the cluster might make some damage with transphasic consoles, but it is a slow torpedo, targetable and easely countered, not our fault you ride an escort with poor hull and poor hull healing capabilities, get yourself a jem hadar shield and it wont hurt, anyway the cluster could be revamped

devs, make it with less damage, but the torpedo is not targetable till it hits the target and splits into mines, this way, it wouldnt be that op in terms of damage, and the aceton assimilator/faw wouldnt be that op clearing it

anyway, i wouldnt say the cluster is op, id rather say aceton assimilator is op, it is a 40 second console, with the cabability to have 2 working at the same time, clearing every single targetable thing, killing every single oportunity science officer's have to make some damage without going half tactical
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude

Last edited by borgresearcher; 03-20-2013 at 08:29 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 130
# 84
03-20-2013, 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokersmith1 View Post
Fought a sci FAE (iirc) today, who was shield+speed tanking and all he had were trannies torps and breen cluster torp. One of the cluster torp critted at point blank, dealing a total damage of 28k. Hull health instantly down to ~33%. I eventually did manage to kill him, but the fight was much much harder than expected for the amount of effort my opponent was putting out. All he did was run high shield and aux powers to tank, nuc me when it was available, and point his nose at me for periodic burst of tranny and breen torps. While I had to keep thinking of ways to stay alive and at the same time keep my eyes open for a chance to penetrate his defense. That was one fight that I might have enjoyed, but really did not.
I run a tac MVAM with all trans, 28k is impossible with a sci captain unless you has serious debuff like beta or some other res debuff.

the avrg for eng and sci capt is 15k crits
a
Tac can avrg 25k

both these number can double is shield are low or about to drop.

why?

Sto damage calculation

back in the old days when tric were useful, a huge tric hit is big enough would bypass everything.

151k tric hit, shields are 15k, hit damage calculates 90% shield res 15.1k which when hit bypass all shields, because the damage is so high that the 15.1 is higher than the 15k so the whole torp bypass.

Same concept goes with any one hit, even clusters.
Usually the first 5 mines will do enough dps that the next 5 will be untouched. the calculation sees it as on hit because it all occur at the same time. Just as if 2 tric hit u at the same time, same facing it will calculate damage as 1 because it hit at the same time and perhaps bypass shields.

Here's

some hard data

Your Mine Explosion dealt 482 (4371) shield damage to .
Your Mine Explosion dealt 632 (5725) shield damage to
Your Mine Explosion dealt 601 (5446) shield damage to
Your Mine Explosion dealt 131 (1186) shield damage to
Your Mine Explosion dealt 122 (1110) shield damage to .
Your Mine Explosion deals 3298 (6229) Kinetic Damage to
Your Mine Explosion deals 4319 (8158) Kinetic Damage to
Your Mine Explosion deals 4108 (7760) Kinetic Damage to .
Your Mine Explosion deals 5057 (5070) Kinetic Damage to
Your Mine Explosion deals 4730 (4743) Kinetic Damage to .

You can see with this cluster first 5 are 10% the next 3 are 40% bleed through and the last is 100%, this can be caused by res, shield bypass and many variables but to my screen his shields were up

Your Mine Explosion dealt 502 (1855) shield damage to
Your Mine Explosion dealt 692 (2560) shield damage to
Your Mine Explosion dealt 678 (2510) shield damage to .
Your Mine Explosion dealt 680 (2517) shield damage to
Your Mine Explosion dealt 573 (2118) shield damage to .
Your Mine Explosion deals 1707 (5068) Kinetic Damage to
Your Mine Explosion deals 1580 (4693) Kinetic Damage to
Your Mine Explosion deals 2181 (6476) Kinetic Damage to
Your Mine Explosion deals 2138 (6349) Kinetic Damage to
Your Mine Explosion deals 2144 (6368) Kinetic Damage to

This is more of a regular trans what the avrg usually is.

all these calculation is max at a 5 consoles and Breen set alpha and omega.

You cannot one hit unless, the opponents shield are under 8k. like a bop or some scort. 99% of the time it will take half hull away.

People sometime mistake dispersal pattern mines with cluster. I ve seen as many as 30 mines hit in a short time destroying any ship it near.


What people should be more afraid of is DpB3 with Alpha + omega 80% trans bleed through, 3-6k hit a mine is nasty. I ve seen up to 96k/16mines for one DpB3.

I say to be fair, it is not op because of the counter people can bring to kin, the problem is everyone runs there DHC bugs and scort and I eat them for breakfast. Sci ship can neuter me and all trans builds.

People have to play other ship, if everyone plays escort guess what Iam going to build a ship to kill 90% of the people with ease.

A ship/power/ build should not b op because the player base chooses to be its dinner, if you thinking DHC scort are going rule sto, guess what there are far better capt skilled to build against them.

Ive played this ship over a month and I can tell you 99% of the time the max cluster(max build) will hit is for 25k anyone else say they got better its BS, there are very rare 50k but 1 in well over 200hr of playing is just a variable.


What you should be scared of is SNB, plasma builds that s a IWIN 1v1, but plasma neutered by 2 great healers in team play.
Nova Core
ParadiseKiller

House of Beautiful Orions
Zeadonouse
ToLate

Last edited by paradise1killer; 03-20-2013 at 09:10 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,420
# 85
03-20-2013, 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Some people probably aren't too fond of the AtB EWP chain crit stuff either...

...the Breen Clusters are far easier to defend against.
BS. plasma is gradual damage, transphasic is spike. you have all the time in the world to save your self, or have someone else save you from plasma. careful use of evasive and HE will get you out of any plasma cloud. APO will act like its not even there.

with all the damn spam every were, i have to set it so it targets only player ships. wish this included targetable projectiles too. anyway that makes it that much harder to avoide them. combine crap like grave pulse, grave anchor (with its knetic res debuff), back step, TB, VM, any sort of thing like that and you cant not take an entire breen torp to the face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
Breen is no worse than any of the other one-hit methods out there. Yes its utterly stupid in PVP but I dont see how its any worse than decloaking alpha surprise buttsex or any of the other crutch techniques.

The whole game is out of control, no limits so people figure out exactly how to take stuff to ridiculous levels.

Want some balance, remove crits from PVP, for starters
its worse, because every other 1 shot tactic has to deal with shield but this. also all those other 1 shots are stupidly easy to counter if you arent asleep.

and i have been 3/4 to totally 1 shot by just the breen torp in an escort, by a fleet MVAM with presumably 5 trans consoles
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,496
# 86
03-20-2013, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
BS. plasma is gradual damage, transphasic is spike. you have all the time in the world to save your self, or have someone else save you from plasma. careful use of evasive and HE will get you out of any plasma cloud. APO will act like its not even there.

with all the damn spam every were, i have to set it so it targets only player ships. wish this included targetable projectiles too. anyway that makes it that much harder to avoide them. combine crap like grave pulse, grave anchor (with its knetic res debuff), back step, TB, VM, any sort of thing like that and you cant not take an entire breen torp to the face.
I've got crappy hardware and I've got it showing everything. I mean, seriously, I'm running an old ATI HD4670 512MB GPU and an AMD 9600B Quad 2.3GHz CPU with 4.5GB of DDR2 RAM. I'm running in Windowed Maximized at 1440x900 resolution on one monitor while I've got Firefox, email, a spreadsheet, messenger, and usually a few other apps open on a second monitor. I'm running Win8.

So it's either targeting it, dropping a mine that will grab them, firing a targetable in that direction which will collide with it, dropping Tyken's/GW, hitting PSW, or just soaking it with BFI or AtS or PH or HE...outrunning it, leading it into spam (heh, sometimes leading it into somebody else - oopsie), etc, etc, etc. When a B'rel could invisitorp everything - no doubt that was a different matter. You would only see the explosions as your hull vaporized.

The majority of ships can't run APO. As you said, careful use of EM/HE can get you out - but it's finicky. The nimble ship that catches you in it is going to paint you with it. I'm not talking about flying into it because of trailing a snoozer. Heck, it's one of the reasons somewhere down the line I'm looking to get the Fleet Norgh to pick up that second LCdr BOFF so I can add EWP to my Sci BoP. MAS'd EWP along with the rest will have more folks complaining than already do.

If it's something where you've got the settings so you can't see them - well obviously they're not going to be as easy to defend against.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 522
# 87
03-20-2013, 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise1killer View Post
*snip*
After reading your post, three possibilities come into my mind.
1. I do not understand you completely, in which case my apologies.
2. You do not understand breen cluster torps. You keep talking about shield damage, if shields were concerned, I very much doubt there would have been this post to begin with.
3. You have not faced a good tranny build with the breen cluster torp as their trump card... yet. But one day it will happen, you will be popped, or nearly popped by one of those torp boats, and you will understand what is going on.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 130
# 88
03-20-2013, 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokersmith1 View Post
After reading your post, three possibilities come into my mind.
1. I do not understand you completely, in which case my apologies.
2. You do not understand breen cluster torps. You keep talking about shield damage, if shields were concerned, I very much doubt there would have been this post to begin with.
3. You have not faced a good tranny build with the breen cluster torp as their trump card... yet. But one day it will happen, you will be popped, or nearly popped by one of those torp boats, and you will understand what is going on.
let circle number one.

I fly exotic build I been flying trans scort for months. I know more than most people about this build.

I brought up shield because if you flown in sto long enough and you love min/max. You know a torp can 100% bypass shield if damage is high enough. Old tric use to do this all the time. Any one hit weapon can. it just take ALOT of damage. Ive notice the first 5 mine differ than the last 5 mines I think some of it has to deal with this mechanic of the game and I ve seen 100% bypass on Bop ask mini I got him in a 10 v10 last week, trust me he returned the favor =P. 100% bypass happens with trans cluster but its super rare and requires a full tac load up and alpha.90% of the time its 15-25k which is not one hit or op.



Last I defend trans cluster because I've been neutered by sci ship, almost to useless in some arena, only 10% of the time because everyone fly's escorts the rest of the time.

I have scared pre-mades into hiding in there own EWP, Trust me I know trans.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post

and i have been 3/4 to totally 1 shot by just the breen torp in an escort, by a fleet MVAM with presumably 5 trans consoles
If it was me you fought a cluster was just one piece, balled up teams get clobbered by cluster because, you all together and mine and torp have a 1-3km aoe effect just like trico on balled up teams = hurt. I killed 3 but cluster was only half DpB3 was the other. Cluster will only cut half the health the other mines finish the job.

You mistaken btw you can get the equivalent of 6 consoles with breen set.

lol if you think clusters are scary I ve seen burn kill in 5 ticks and if your SNB your SOL
Nova Core
ParadiseKiller

House of Beautiful Orions
Zeadonouse
ToLate

Last edited by paradise1killer; 03-20-2013 at 07:42 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,140
# 89
03-20-2013, 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise1killer View Post
let circle number one.

I fly exotic build I been flying trans scort for months. I know more than most people about this build.

I brought up shield because if you flown in sto long enough and you love min/max. You know a torp can 100% bypass shield if damage is high enough. Old tric use to do this all the time. Any one hit weapon can. it just take ALOT of damage. Ive notice the first 5 mine differ than the last 5 mines I think some of it has to deal with this mechanic of the game and I ve seen 100% bypass on Bop ask mini I got him in a 10 v10 last week, trust me he returned the favor =P. 100% bypass happens with trans cluster but its super rare and requires a full tac load up and alpha.90% of the time its 15-25k which is not one hit or op.



Last I defend trans cluster because I've been neutered by sci ship, almost to useless in some arena, only 10% of the time because everyone fly's escorts the rest of the time.

I have scared pre-mades into hiding in there own EWP, Trust me I know trans.
I was on the receiving end of paradise1killer's transcort a few weeks ago in an arena match with my tac Fleet MVAE. I didn't last too long in that match. He nearly 1 hit me in first pass, and killed me on the second right at the beginning. Because of that, i now make sure i have a Monotanium Alloy in my inventory...just in case.

*Shakes fist at paradise1killer for making me lose Beta Mode*
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 915
# 90
03-20-2013, 07:47 PM
If it's players doing that it;s because their stats increase the damage on certain types of builds AND they can stack all consoles for it.

I know I was doing that on my science ships. took only the target acc on traits and the rest under tactical were kinetic damage, then I used mines in the back and the Cluster Torp in front, would take most things out no prob.

What was sad was I had to as a science captain in a science ship use this because nothing else would work to help me kill quickly until I finally just gave up and bought a Kumari Escort.
I would like for the devs to open a poll/feedback thread on what exactly the players would like to see in the near future for the game.
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