Ive notice the first 5 mine differ than the last 5 mines I think some of it has to deal with this mechanic of the game and I ve seen 100% bypass on Bop ....... 100% bypass happens with trans cluster but its super rare and requires a full tac load up and alpha.90% of the time its 15-25k which is not one hit or op.
C'mon buddy I'm not buying your story. You need to practice reading your combat log a bit more.
I was on the receiving end of paradise1killer's transcort a few weeks ago in an arena match with my tac Fleet MVAE. I didn't last too long in that match. He nearly 1 hit me in first pass, and killed me on the second right at the beginning. Because of that, i now make sure i have a Monotanium Alloy in my inventory...just in case.
*Shakes fist at paradise1killer for making me lose Beta Mode*
I feel yay I hate loosing beta but I hate loosing y-gama even more
Ya alloy are one of my banes just one console makes me re-evaluate targets. I've seen pre-mades with everyone running them but there always that dumb cruiser thinking he know best with none and after a few torp volley u can see the numbers and find the weak link, to kin.
Paradise Killer deals 21480 (15646) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to you with Rapid Fire Transphasic Torpedo.
Just to show it not always clusters that kills.
House of Beautiful Orions
The issue isn't that people can slot more then one... the issue (as you see it, I think.. the cluster spam) is that doffs reduce there cool down. I can keep on breen cluster at global (which is 15s on the cluster) with only one and torp doffs. (you must be a committed torp boat obviously)
They are all valid counters, but keep in mind how many of those can a ship have equipped at once, consider their cooldown, and calculate how many counters can be thrown out before a ship finally runs out of counters. This might be a non-issue if the cluster torp cd stayed at its native level of 45 sec, BUT .....
So why not normalize the crits instead? If its computationally cheaper to calculate a crit chance once then implement it on all the spams at once, at least take precaution to calculate how many spams the crit effects and normalize the crit damage accordingly. Wouldn't that be the best solution? After all, there are 10 mines that a breen cluster torp spews out. Even a 4k bleedthrough damage per mine in a crit is a total or 40k bleedthrough damage. And nobody needs special skills for this to happen, they just need to be lucky. And even that luck can be bent to favor the shooter, what with all the crit chances that can be stacked these days.
Well they could look at CrtD limits on the Clusters... but it opens a can doesn't it... should Dispersal 3 mines not fall under the same math then ?
Also your math is way off... 4k x 10 phasic mines doesn't = 40k bleed... the cluster goes by the old Phasic numbers... so it would be around 16k Bleed dmg... that is not counting any hull resists. I will say I have gotten them to crit in the 7-8k range and yes that will hurt more.
You asked how many counters people can have up to them due to cool downs however... so lets look at it...
Lets assume I am shooting torps at you and have used doffs to get an average of 20s cool downs on my Clusters....
You have 100% for sure these 3
BFI (45s cool down)
Evasive (45s cool down)
8 weapon slots with a worse case 4s cycle time.
Now I would almost for sure drop them on your head.... so perhaps of the above only 2 are reliable... still you can roll evasive and bfi every 22s if you stagger them....
Defacto Heal resist skills...
Hazards or Polarized Hull (You will have at least 1 of these and perhaps 2... 45s cool downs)
And to finish it off... you are GOING to have 1 of these likely
Escort... Omega and or Delta
Sci... GW / Shock / Tractor / TBR
Cruiser... EWP / Aux to Damp / Aux to Sif
So to sum up why I hold these are no big deal....
- EVERYONE has 2 major counters by default
- Any one that PvPs... has Hazards or PH, and sometimes both... they both neuter dmg from the clusters
- Every Ship that PvPs... is going to have one of the Ship class counters I mentioned almost 100% of the time.
So in effect... you should have a counter up in and around every 10s worst case... throw in 1-2 of the other 30 some counters I listed and these really shouldn't bother you... if you get caught by one once a night... its no different then when people used to mess up and get smacked by a tric torp.
People don't understand, FAW ANY AOE will neuter a trans boats.
Its only the DHC escort that don't know how to run or fly there ship, that reap the benefits of cluster. Just like
they can decloak and rip your hull away I can shove a cluster on those guys, but if any aoe is out in arena I am SOL
I just fought a team with 2 tans boats try to tractor and cluster me , say hello to Omega and evasive, brace for impact, HE and I am only in a MVAM. Guess what no deaths woot
House of Beautiful Orions
Last edited by paradise1killer; 03-20-2013 at 11:22 PM.
Well, reading some of this long topic has been amusing to say the least.
I've had my trans boat before the changes, mostly because I've always liked them.
Albeit, to the detriment of my own hull at times. lol
My first trans boat was well back there, when the breen first showed up.
Anyway, the clusters are not op at all. My two cents worth from experience.
Perhaps the crit chance per mine should be looked at instead of for all, like many think.
I'd much rather see more variety in builds other than the point nose to target with DHC's build.
Nerfing something that blew you up is not a good thing considering one very important question;
Did you look at your build for possible counters?
oh, and btw. It takes a LOT of stuff to make it work remotely well enough to actually use.
Well its the only thing keeping a torp boat relevent.
what are u gonna do? wait for your team to drop theyre sheilds so u can use normal torps?
without a way to bypass sheilds on an all torp boat u arent gonna do anything, plasma dot resist is off the charts, reg trans do barely anything at the rate u can spit them out. u need a "nuke" torp like breen to outpace heals
if i turned brel into my old heghta crf bo build, it would be far deadlier. heghta routinely gets 1 mill plus dmg a match, brel 300-500k
a crf bo build is much more consistent, brenn crit bombs are few and far in between
look at the brightside.....in a month or two we will have a whole new factions worth of potential (guarenteed) op gear and ships. : ) cant wait......(sarcasm)
Last edited by beefsupreme79; 03-21-2013 at 09:57 AM.
Thing is - how much damage in a match is meaningful? That's one of the concerns about the damage from Trans - it tends to be more meaningful damage than just peppering somebody's uber shields over and over again - massive damage...that goes nowhere.
People don't like that there's a weapon that bypasses that for some effective damage. They don't like that they have to think about defending against it... etc, etc, etc.
No doubt the chain crit thing needs to be fixed, but that's not explicitly a Cluster thing - it's what should have been done before the Tric nerfs - it affects several things.
Hell, it's kind of funny - because there's a guy that's been testing something and the chain crit is apply elsewhere as well.
If you've got a target with Emergency Secondary Shielding and an attacker with Sensor Targeting Assault... if the Attacker crits - the 20% roll for both the ESS/STA appear to be the same roll. It's a chain roll. The chain crit issue has to be tied into the way that Cryptic's handling RNG.
Breen torp has always been op... it just never worked properly. lol
No seriously 2 things have changed that yes I believe make it one of the many BS items in the game.
1) they fixed it... I know right. It used to not launch 25% of the time so lots of people never dreamed of really using it for more then the lulz.
2) The addition of Torpedo doffs. Anytime a torpedo doff procs... it reduces the cool down of the breen cluster torp. Honestly if I put on on my torp brel I can launch one about every 8-16s aprox... which is much much faster then the 45s it was balanced at. I have gotten lucky roles where I have had 3 out at once that hadn't landed yet cause someone was trying to outrun them instead of shoot them.
1 - To balance these things honestly.... They likely SHOULD not be Transphasic. (I know I know there breen and they use them) but something like photon would have been a better choice.
2 - Torpedo doffs need to stop effecting them.
The minimum cooldown on the Breen Transphasic Mine Torp is 15s.
The minimum cooldown on the Breen Transphasic Mine Torp is 15s.
It is... but with 1 and 3 doffs I would say the average release time is around 20s... you hit 15s now and then... but there are also times when you just don't get the procs... and your target breaks torp arc enough to push them out to 30s as well.