Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 460
# 11
03-21-2013, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
wile it can be entertaining to have damage buffed GW, PSW, FBP, and TBR, your not going to destroy anyone like you will in an escort
I have no experience with this, but what if you did all of that in a Vesta with those dual heavy cannons as well? Or are the tactical bridge officer stations just not there to do both?
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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,799
# 12
03-21-2013, 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwire690 View Post
I'm shocked to hear some things in the replies to the original post.

First of all Npc's fly out of gravity well. I have 6 points. And I would find it ridiculous for someone to tell me I HAVE TO put 9 points into it to get it to hold. The fact is the repel sucks. Using it for npc spam? pfff. Is that what Gravity Well is for? Hmmm. And here I thought it was for controlling a group of ships. I think Cryptic needs to specify they want us to trap fighters with this skill in the description. I'm sure many other players are confused also.
Plenty of things in this game suck unless you fully spec them... Are you telling me you have 6 points in to torps when you use them ? Or that you have 6 points into hull strength ?

Why is it so shocking to think that perhaps you have to fully spec a sci skill to in fact make it useful.

I'm sorry I play sci as well... my GW3 fully speced KILLS people. Do I wine when I watch an escort blow through it with Omega up.... no I understand they have a counter. In general I use it on there heal buddies and other sci. lol

NPCs fly out of... Are you going loopy trips ? Last I checked if I take my sci ship into an ESTF the spheres all go boom in about half the time as when I go in with my high dps escort. Nothing like one sphere popping the next...

I suggest you respec and use your buffs a little more wisely

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwire690 View Post
Tykens Rift is a joke. I suppose someone will tell me that energy siphon is meant to boost your own power levels and not to drain the targets power levels either so its still good. I guess Cryptic should probably just remove the drain from enemies altogether for that skill since we're only using it for half ass reasons in the first place. But who needs to bother trying to drain when I can run two copies of Viral Matrix and shut down systems with little to no effort. Now there is a skill that IS working well right now.
I don't think anyone would argue Tykens didn't pretty much suck right now. Not in a good way either. However Cryptic did remove the system cool down that was shared with siphen previously. A combo of the two skills can be semi effective. (the real issue with both Tykens and Siphen is that they are cleared by hazards)

However the op is complaining about tacs... and as far as I know Tykens and Siphen suck equally as much for Tac Sci or engi.

As for VM... again all 3 captain types no difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwire690 View Post
Shield Drains? Mai Kai has already commented on his extensive experience with the skill. Its a hail mary. But I'm glad Tacyhon Beam and Charged Particle Burst aren't calculated as damage dealing skills. Good god tacs would buff those too.
Exactly what I was saying... they are good skills already... hail marry all you want... there is a reason Mai Kai still runs them. lol

And again to the ops assertion that tac makes sci better then sci sci... its silly.

CPB / Tachyon / Siphen / Tykens / VM / tractor / Scramble / Jam... none of them are effected by any captain skills. (Yes tykens and tractor do some dmg... but its not enough to matter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwire690 View Post
Scramble is in a sweet spot right now. Jam Sensors does it's job. Photonic Shockwave was never for damage? In any form its either been stronger for stuns, or stronger for damage. Except now the damage is negligible even with shields down and the max disable you'll get is 1-2 seconds. Pretty crappy for a commander level skill. Wish my shockwave was more like an attack pattern. Boy those attack patterns sure get a lot of mileage. Of course I'll give credit to the photonic shockwave doffs. The spread can be pretty effective for that one to two seconds in team settings. It was a really cool addition to the game. So in my opinion a little boost in damage numbers may be warranted here.
Sci is a debuff class... no one claimed it was an easy thing to do properly.

Last I checked there was no attack pattern to disable an extend... or shut off a warp plasma... or stop a tachyon channel... there is one to break a tractor I guess, but then that same pattern also makes you die to TBR, and shockwave just shuts it off.

Shockwave does all of the things above... NO dmg has never been its primary objective... and in fact Cryptic admitted there code was bugged when PSW3 wasn't in line with the lower versions and corrected it... that had NOTHING at all to do with tacs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwire690 View Post
There are too many sci skills that are NOT used particularly in premade matches simply because they are USELESS in their current form and/or relative to current resists to said skills. And if someone is going to tell me that out of all the science skills available that science captains are only meant to use the ones that deal NO DAMAGE? I guess Tac Captains only use the attack patterns that BUFF DAMAGE AND MOVEMENT and not DEBUFF their targets right? And Tac Captains shouldn't use anything that isnt a cannon or turret and deals energy damage. NO. Because that would just be plain nonsense.

So lets not come here and berate the original poster who is obviously frustrated with the current state of science. As are many other science captains who play this game right now. Lets not pretend there is nothing wrong with the class. There is definitely room for improvement. Now there are definitely things that work best for Science Captains right now and DontdrunkImShoot made an excellent point about what weapons work the best for sci right at this point in time. And for good reason. But in my own way I agree with the OP. Tac Captains don't need to buff science or engineering skills. They should only buff energy damage and projectile damage. I personally have a problem with Tac Captains having a monopoly over every form of damage dealt in the game. In my opinion projectile and energy damage is enough of a monopoly. Sci and Engineering Captains will never compete on raw damage output alone and that's fair. But that is where Science Captains and Engineering Captains should be able to make up the differential deficit in "pressure damage" versus "spike damage". Through the exotic damage found in select Science and Engineering abilities which have always been counterable or avoidable to some degree as opposed to an alpha strike exceptionally well timed and expertly executed.

-Captain Tripwire-
I play a sci... In fact I play multiple sci... I am NOT frustrated by sci at all. I guess I'm in the minority.

However I would suggest it has more to do with the fact that some players are looking for an ego stroke.

I'm sorry Sci is NOT the career you choose if your looking for a big Ohhh Ahhh from the puggletts you get teamed with. You will most likely NOT be the top on the dmg board... You will most likely NOT be on the top of the healing board (unless you really gimp your build to do nothing but heal)... you MAY end up with top kills if you spread a lot of AOE... but if you choose a none AOE build... you may well have a mid range kill number as well.

However you WILL WIN matches all the darn time, because well played SCI is game changing.

I LOVE pugging with my sci... because frankly people ignore me most of the time. Its nice being in a pug against a premade... that would for sure have targeted my bug first every encounter, pretty much ignore me until its to late. They do end up focusing me at some point... in most cased after there down 10 or so and stop scratching there heads.

I honestly can't get over how diluted people are about sci.

Sci Sci is the most game changing combo in this game... to see good players still wining about there broken builds because there crutch commander skills take more thought these days is hillarious. With the current state of the game its the same for every class right now... YOU have to time your buffs/debuffs properly. You can't just run in and alpha rapid fire anymore... and you can't just CPB Nuke VM HY anymore either. Timing has always been important, now its everything.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 03-21-2013 at 01:09 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,149
# 13
03-21-2013, 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
unless your runing a dot or trans build, expect to deal next to no damage as a sci/sci. but thats fine, you should be seting up kills, thats your job, the damage you cause will neveer be enough to make a difference, so dont bother trying to deal any. control instead

VM- ruination of escorts or anything that doesnt have ET

PSW- puts a stop to TBs, TBR, tach beam, ES, EWP, and any other skill that has a duration like that

GW- an aoe hold that can hold pretty well with proper specing, the doff seems to work great too.

TBR- the push is what maters with a sci. get someone away from a healer and have the escorts pounce on them

you also got SNB and scan, the 2 greatest kill setup skills in the game. your escort friends take it from here.



if tac skills stopped buffing skills that deal energy or kinetic damage, there would never be a reason for a tac to fly a sci, that synergy would not exist. wile it can be entertaining to have damage buffed GW, PSW, FBP, and TBR, your not going to destroy anyone like you will in an escort, and your a sci ship on the field without an SNB and scan and sci fleet and the aoe resist thing.

sci captains seem to take it real personal when tac captains can deal more damage with THEIR skills. forgetting that its in no way a sci captains job to contribute to team success by dealing damage. any that a sci captain deals is just gravy.
Can sci captains get more support out of tac powers than tacs can? No.

Anyway, anyone who thinks sci powers aren't for doing damage never fought my Nebula 2 years back. Sci captains are only good for support now, because of nerfs; it was not always the case. Not hard to see why that might rankle.
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,173
# 14
03-21-2013, 01:11 PM
It's one of those "Magic" things. One of those things nobody is supposed to think about. It's a very simplified system - it's a very casual game - thus, the Tac is able to boost damage - including damage that there's almost no way to envision how it is possible that the Tac is boosting that damage.

STO's not a space sim.

The less one looks for logic in the game - the more one can enjoy pressing their spacebar and blowing things up.

This isn't the pseudo science of Star Trek.

It's the wham bam, I don't know what's going on - this is horribly silly - oh that's cool world of JJTrek.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 270
# 15
03-21-2013, 01:16 PM
Flying a tactical sci ship is a lot harder than you might think
K'eg/T'lol/Dude/Yak
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,799
# 16
03-21-2013, 01:17 PM
Sci Sci can still put out massive numbers...

I don't mean this as a brag in anyway... and I don't take screen shots of my games because I'm not a douche.

Really though... My Sci Sci Fleet Nova... Pulls 300-600k a game. I am almost always top on the score board in my sci sci, unless there is a proper escort around. Frankly even then I don't think I have ever been in a game where a Tac has pulled over 100k more then my sci. I am including games with good players like Thales in his bug. If he put down a 700... I'll have a 625, with double the healing of course.

Man frankly Sci Sci is just plain op still in these days... its just not like the "good old" days where all you needed was sci period.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 937
# 17
03-21-2013, 01:18 PM
Shhhh op don't point out the obvious, all the tactical escort captains might unilaterally have a cow at the same time and then we'll have whole ships full of cow poo.

It's true that they've done to science captains in science ships what all other mmo's have done to healers throughout history. Only when they finally start losing players because people are all tired of being forced to play as a tactical escort captain to have any speed by which to finish dailies for currencies will they begin to make changes just like what had to happen in World of ******** some time ago when they nerfed Priests so badly that no one would play healers and it all but stopped dungeons entirely because there weren't enough healers to fill the dungeons adequately.

The same thing needs to happen here.

Science skills aren't magic they are based on scientific theory, the buffs that tacts use however are magic buffs that spring out of nowhere and it's only amplified by their poor design of having attack patterns and evasive maneuver patterns in the same skill thus turning it into an iWin button.

They need to take a long look at this because it doesn't matter how many factions they spit out over the next few months, it's still going to be a huge issue of imbalance.
I would like for the devs to open a poll/feedback thread on what exactly the players would like to see in the near future for the game.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,799
# 18
03-21-2013, 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's one of those "Magic" things. One of those things nobody is supposed to think about. It's a very simplified system - it's a very casual game - thus, the Tac is able to boost damage - including damage that there's almost no way to envision how it is possible that the Tac is boosting that damage.

STO's not a space sim.

The less one looks for logic in the game - the more one can enjoy pressing their spacebar and blowing things up.

This isn't the pseudo science of Star Trek.

It's the wham bam, I don't know what's going on - this is horribly silly - oh that's cool world of JJTrek.
Its true it is a game first... and perhaps it seems non logical to some that kirk would boost his deflector dish output somehow. lol

Still if a Sci can figure out how to make the dish on that escort throw Nukes... and Sensor scan people to death (and not leave his upgrades in place for Kirk)... it seems logical that the Engi can rotate that sci ships shield freqs... and the tac can goose up that Tractor beam pulsor.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,173
# 19
03-21-2013, 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Its true it is a game first... and perhaps it seems non logical to some that kirk would boost his deflector dish output somehow. lol

Still if a Sci can figure out how to make the dish on that escort throw Nukes... and Sensor scan people to death (and not leave his upgrades in place for Kirk)... it seems logical that the Engi can rotate that sci ships shield freqs... and the tac can goose up that Tractor beam pulsor.
But it's not really a case of "somehow" - it's the same ol' same ol' blanket thing.

It's the same APA whether it's DHCs, Beams, Torps, Mines, EWP, GW, etc, etc, etc.

It's not a case that the game provides for a character build where you've created a character that took a dual specialization in Tac/Sci at the Academy and has learned a specific ability for such a character that allows them to combine their Tac and Sci training to boost Science abilities in a more offensive manner.

It's just a Tac going wheeeeee - APA - wheeeeee! It's like the game was made for Pakleds.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 264
# 20
03-21-2013, 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borgresearcher View Post
what they did when tacticals started to boost science skills ? nerfed science skills, they didnt nerf the boosting capability of tacticals from theyr op skills, causing a dmg boost to everything

repulsors are weak, they make useless dmg without tactical skills, same for photonic shockwave and gravity well

gravity well cant hold a thing anymore, and tacticals still can boost it better than sci's

feedbackpulse is drastically boosted from tactical buffs too, i mean, you dont need to spend points on science skills, just go tactical, they can boost the damage the enemy is making, and reflect it harder ...

charged particle burst is super weak, i cant reach 5k shield strip even with 4 flow cap consoles and max aux, anyone have a shield of 15-20k average cap, that plus power insulators that recudes cpb damage by half, makes the skill useless, cpb and tachyon beam are useless now.

photonic shockwave dmg can be boosted better by tactical officers too, and the disable time is stupid because every tactical have the op skill called attack pattern omega that gives immunity to every single disable, hold, repel, gravity well etc etc, and still everybody has inertial dampers that recuces the disable time by half

the only skills that i find usefull for pvp are energy syphon and feedbackpulse, and perhaps repulsors/gw with doff to have a constant mine clearing, other skills are useless, cpb is only to decloak, sensor scan, gravity well, antiproton sweap do that too, tykens rift's drain is very weak too, and that is because tactical's can boost every single thing there is in the game, making science's job better than scientists, my brother quited engineer because nadion inversion is useless 95% of the time, only to counter energy drain builds, or to make some overloads, but devs forgot about torpedo boats of course, because tacticals boost any kind of dmg, and comparing nadion inversion/eps power transfer/eng fleet to the related tactical skill you will see that tacticals are op, because they can boost everything, they should only boost energy damage, leaving the kinetic for scientists, or making the kinetic damage from repulsors/psw/gw, modified by aux, plus a little boost in dmg, as well as the shield stripping skills of course, they can't do a ****


wanna try science in science vessel ? dont, that would require you to spend points on prtg,flow caps, etc etc, go tactical, they can boost feedbackpulse better than you wihout particle generators, they can make a 10k photonic shockwave, or almost kill you with only one repulsors bleed, and what the devs did for that to stop happening ? nerf science skills !!! and give attack pattern omega immunity to disables, holds, repels, movement debuffs, etc etc, cryptic dont want balance, they want the f*king jhas to be stronger and stronger
and they keep nerfing every single way that other classes have to kill tacs, aceton beam is BS, as well as dem, because someone discovered that dem worked nice with turrets, or that tackyon beam could strip half of a escort's shield if well boosted

and please, don't tell me "if you can't win a pvp in a sci/sci you are doing it wrong" because i know what i do, and if you dont believe it, post your in game name and we will have a fight.

tacticals are op because they can boost science skills better than scientists, and have better captain skills than engineers (definitely) and scientists, pressure damage is still super up, leaving the rest for tacticals that can boost all type of damage, and i cant make a significant ammount of damage without feedbackpulse on 1vs1's, and please, dont talk about that 10k vesta dps build, that was the most nooby post i ever saw.

tacticals shouldn't boost science skills they way they do, at least, stop boosting fbp and kinetic dmg from science skills, and give them a boost
You didn't mention Sub Nuc as a skill that you find useful for PVP...?

Nothing that I, as a Tactical Captain, comes even close to Sub Nuc. Damage boosts are nice but don't do much against self/ally buffed targets.
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