Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
# 21
03-21-2013, 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's one of those "Magic" things. One of those things nobody is supposed to think about. It's a very simplified system - it's a very casual game - thus, the Tac is able to boost damage - including damage that there's almost no way to envision how it is possible that the Tac is boosting that damage.

STO's not a space sim.

The less one looks for logic in the game - the more one can enjoy pressing their spacebar and blowing things up.

This isn't the pseudo science of Star Trek.

It's the wham bam, I don't know what's going on - this is horribly silly - oh that's cool world of JJTrek.
This game was conceived, created, re-conceived, re-launched, etc. before JJTrek existed... I think that your argument there is flawed.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,260
# 22
03-21-2013, 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
But it's not really a case of "somehow" - it's the same ol' same ol' blanket thing.

It's the same APA whether it's DHCs, Beams, Torps, Mines, EWP, GW, etc, etc, etc.

It's not a case that the game provides for a character build where you've created a character that took a dual specialization in Tac/Sci at the Academy and has learned a specific ability for such a character that allows them to combine their Tac and Sci training to boost Science abilities in a more offensive manner.

It's just a Tac going wheeeeee - APA - wheeeeee! It's like the game was made for Pakleds.
How is a Sci Scort throwing a -80 dmg reduction AOE like around not the same thing ?

Its the same captain level skill, somehow it works in any ship.

Same thing with Sub nuke... it works just was well in the defiant as it does in the intrepid for some reason.

I won't insult anyone with the engi stuff... but its true EPS transfer does the exact same thing in the enterprise or the saber.
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,451
# 23
03-21-2013, 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedumb4eva View Post
This game was conceived, created, re-conceived, re-launched, etc. before JJTrek existed... I think that your argument there is flawed.
JJTrek was released May 2009.
STO was not released until Feb 2010.

Abrams signed on to direct the new film in Feb 2007. Planning for the film had already started back in 2005. The original release date was to be Christmas 2008. It got pushed back to Summer 2009. The original filming had been completed around April 2008.

Cryptic took over from Perpetual and announced STO around July 2008. Again, the game was not released until Feb 2010.

How is what I said flawed again?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,451
# 24
03-21-2013, 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
How is a Sci Scort throwing a -80 dmg reduction AOE like around not the same thing ?

Its the same captain level skill, somehow it works in any ship.

Same thing with Sub nuke... it works just was well in the defiant as it does in the intrepid for some reason.

I won't insult anyone with the engi stuff... but its true EPS transfer does the exact same thing in the enterprise or the saber.
Yes, the APA should affect the Beams, Cannons, weapons on any ship - just like a Sci can drop Scattering or use SNB on any ship.

That's not the same as APA affecting a Sci BOFF ability.

The Sci/Eng abilities do the same thing on different ships.
Tac abilities should do the same thing on different ships...not additional things.

Last edited by virusdancer; 03-21-2013 at 03:01 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 769
# 25
03-21-2013, 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Sci Sci can still put out massive numbers...

I don't mean this as a brag in anyway... and I don't take screen shots of my games because I'm not a douche.

Really though... My Sci Sci Fleet Nova... Pulls 300-600k a game. I am almost always top on the score board in my sci sci, unless there is a proper escort around. Frankly even then I don't think I have ever been in a game where a Tac has pulled over 100k more then my sci. I am including games with good players like Thales in his bug. If he put down a 700... I'll have a 625, with double the healing of course.

Man frankly Sci Sci is just plain op still in these days... its just not like the "good old" days where all you needed was sci period.
QFT.

Don't doubt the power of a Sci/Sci. Anyone that says otherwise is welcome to take a look at my Vesta o' Doom.
The first we heard of getting new PvP maps "soon" was in August of 2010. We're consistently told something will be coming with the "next" update. Absolutely nothing has come to PvP since launch.

I think it's finally time Cryptic stopped stringing us along, don't you?
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,260
# 26
03-21-2013, 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Yes, the APA should affect the Beams, Cannons, weapons on any ship - just like a Sci can drop Scattering or use SNB on any ship.

That's not the same as APA affecting a Sci BOFF ability.

The Sci/Eng abilities do the same thing on different ships.
Tac abilities should do the same thing on different ships...not additional things.
Its hard to say they do added things.

Last I checked... I could load a TBR 1 on an escort... or a GW 1 on the MVAM... or a FBP 1-2... or a DEM 1-2.

If I CHOOSE to trade omega 3 / Rapid Fire 3/2 for a copy of DEM 3... or TBR 2/3 instead... whats the difference.

I think almost everyone will agree the Escort Commander and Lt. Commander buffs are going to synergise with Alpha one heck of a lot better then those Sci skills.

My point is.... This entire thread... is Science Sour Grapes... as some players seem to think there sci toons have been nerfed somehow. They direct there vitriol at tacticals for some reason... I guess because they feel we can somehow make a sci ship work better then they can which is complete BS.

Last I checked Panadas and TSI where NOT running around with 5 man Tac Sci teams... in fact I think if you ask someone like Jorf He'll tell you Tactical in a Science ship is doing it wrong. lol

Tac Sci is a fun option... that ONLY works because you can trade your Fantastic Synergy with the tactical commander / captain skills... for an interesting one with the Science Commander/ Tac Captain skills.

Will it out dmg a Sci Sci... the ones with no imagination sure... I have fun flying tac sci now and then... HOWEVER the tac sci is only really good at picking apart pugs. (in which case I am sure my bug would be more humane) Against a proper team... My sci sci will out dmg my tac sci... and the only way to rack up kills at all anymore is to create windows of anti resistance.
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 03-21-2013 at 03:45 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 74
# 27
03-21-2013, 04:08 PM
To be honest, I don't see how and why tactical patterns such as attack pattern alpha or omega should increase the damage done by sci abilities such as tyken's rift, FBP, etc. Makes no sense.

I get it that tacticals are supposed to deal out the pew pew, but to me I always thought the buffs from those patterns should only buff up energy and projectile weapons damage, not include damage from exotic particle damage or whatnot.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,165
# 28
03-21-2013, 04:14 PM
you know what else doesnt make sense? tactical buffs magically making your weapons deal more damage. how does that work? its not like they boost power or anything, they just magically do more damage.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,451
# 29
03-21-2013, 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
My point is.... This entire thread... is Science Sour Grapes... as some players seem to think there sci toons have been nerfed somehow. They direct there vitriol at tacticals for some reason... I guess because they feel we can somehow make a sci ship work better then they can which is complete BS.
I wouldn't lump me in with that, personally. Heck, look at praxi's quote for my stance on Sci.

My "sour grapes" is more an overall - hrmm, frustration? - in regard to how "simplified" Cryptic has made certain things. You'll notice my beef wasn't actually that a Tac could buff Sci damage - rather my beef was the manner in which Cryptic did it. Falling into that category of "Magic"...heck, that's what I've been saying. Even in the additional thing - it's that APA is doing it - not that it's being done.

I could have sworn I posted something else in this thread, but I don't see it. I know I typed it. I must have closed it out by accident instead of posting it (have way too many forum tabs open at the moment).

In it I mentioned something I had mentioned in another thread (something I admitted was Fed biased there, simply because of the info being so readily available for Feds) about how STO handles "Careers" versus how Starfleet had Divisions and how most of the "Characters" in the Shows/Movies were actually "dual-spec" - ie with the three Divisions (Command, Operations (including Tac and Eng), & Science) - we'd often have "Characters" that were a mix of two Divisions.

So yeah, you'd have that Tac/Sci or Sci/Tac with Ability X (or a series of abilities) that would allow them to do more damage with Sci abilities. It's what they've trained to do. It wouldn't just be a blanket ability that any Tac could use.

It's about there being less "Magic" - less black box, don't think about it or don't worry about it...and more about, oh - I see how that works...that's damn cool.

It's among my turning into a crotchety old man series of posts of late...I guess. That desire for more complex things rather than simpler things.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,451
# 30
03-21-2013, 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
you know what else doesnt make sense? tactical buffs magically making your weapons deal more damage. how does that work? its not like they boost power or anything, they just magically do more damage.
Application of training? Bursts of insight based on situational awareness and observation? Better focus, clarity, timing?

With the training in the use of the weapons, short bursts of improved use of them is not much of a stretch. Using those same abilities to provide short bursts with non-weapons though? Additional abilities that reflect more offensive training in those non-weapons? That additional complexity and pseudo realism...
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