Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,592
# 11
03-11-2013, 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
3 + (Turn rate -3) * (1 + (all turn bonuses in percentages/100) + Engine power level / 100) + turn bonus of your engine
This is not quite correct. The turn bonus of your engines is multiplied by your base turn rate minus 3. Also, your formula does not include the skill "Starship Impulse Thrusters".
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,189
# 12
03-11-2013, 11:26 PM
Turn rate abilities most certainly do stack. I use aux2damp and EM and/or APO all the time on my Bortasqu'. Its turn rate more than doubles using all three skills.


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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 13
03-15-2013, 11:22 PM
Ok problem solved big thanks to mandoknight89.

First you must determine the ship's true base turn rate. Simply take the rate listed in the store and subtract 3. All bonuses are additive and applied as a percentage of that base. Don't worry I'll show an example at the end.

Engine Power provides a 1% mod per 1 point of power.
[Turn] Mod on engines provides a 10% mod per. Keep in mind many set engines have this mod on them but do not say that they do.
Skill Mod is roughly .37 ish close as I can get. So if it is maxed it would be .999 * .37 for 37% roughly.
Boff abilities list their % mod.
Consoles list their % mod.

So lets take the oddessy with a listed turn rate of 6. Maxed out skill, two engine mods, and 55 engine power. No consoles.

Base Turn Rate (6-3) = 3

Skill Mod (.999 * .37) = .37
[Turn] Mod (.1 * 2) = .2
Power Mod (.01 * 55) = .55

Base * (All Mods Added) = Bonus Turn
3 * (.37 + .2 + .55) = 3.36
Listed Turn + Bonus Turn = Actual Turn
3.36 + 6 = 9.36

Or you could use this formula
(Listed Turn - 3) * (1+ Skill Mod + [Turn] Mod + Power Mod + Console Mod) + 3 = Actual Turn Rate.

Now for giggles let us determine the actual turn rate differences most will encounter. Most will have around 50 engine power and 6 ranks in the skill with ah lets say a single turn mod on the engine. That's a 91% bonus.

6 Listed Turn = 8.73
9 Listed Turn = 14.46
12 Listed Turn = 20.19
18 Listed Turn = 31.65

5.73 is what the turn rate difference becomes in reality for every 3 difference you start with for the above example. Bah.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 14
03-15-2013, 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Ok problem solved big thanks to mandoknight89.

First you must determine the ship's true base turn rate. Simply take the rate listed in the store and subtract 3. All bonuses are additive and applied as a percentage of that base. Don't worry I'll show an example at the end.

Engine Power provides a 1% mod per 1 point of power.
[Turn] Mod on engines provides a 10% mod per. Keep in mind many set engines have this mod on them but do not say that they do.
Skill Mod is roughly .37 ish close as I can get. So if it is maxed it would be .999 * .37 for 37% roughly.
Boff abilities list their % mod.
Consoles list their % mod.

So lets take the oddessy with a listed turn rate of 6. Maxed out skill, two engine mods, and 55 engine power. No consoles.

Base Turn Rate (6-3) = 3

Skill Mod (.999 * .37) = .37
[Turn] Mod (.1 * 2) = .2
Power Mod (.01 * 55) = .55

Base * (All Mods Added) = Bonus Turn
3 * (.37 + .2 + .55) = 3.36
Listed Turn + Bonus Turn = Actual Turn
3.36 + 6 = 9.36

Or you could use this formula
(Listed Turn - 3) * (1+ Skill Mod + [Turn] Mod + Power Mod + Console Mod) + 3 = Actual Turn Rate.

Now for giggles let us determine the actual turn rate differences most will encounter. Most will have around 50 engine power and 6 ranks in the skill with ah lets say a single turn mod on the engine. That's a 91% bonus.

6 Listed Turn = 8.73
9 Listed Turn = 14.46
12 Listed Turn = 20.19
18 Listed Turn = 31.65

5.73 is what the turn rate difference becomes in reality for every 3 difference you start with for the above example. Bah.
Actually, the most "fun" part about turn rate is that turn consoles are 3x as effective on escorts. So a galaxy for example would need 3 such consoles to get same benefit as defiant with single one. That's clear disadvantage to cruisers, as no other console scales this way on this magnitute.

Imagine the cry from escort fliers if armor consoles would be only 1/3 effective on escorts and you would have to equip 3 to get the same benift as cruiser with 1.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,533
# 15
03-15-2013, 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Actually, the most "fun" part about turn rate is that turn consoles are 3x as effective on escorts. So a galaxy for example would need 3 such consoles to get same benefit as defiant with single one. That's clear disadvantage to cruisers, as no other console scales this way on this magnitute.

Imagine the cry from escort fliers if armor consoles would be only 1/3 effective on escorts and you would have to equip 3 to get the same benift as cruiser with 1.
Perhaps they should make that change.

Escorts end up with a larger bonus from RCS due to base... Sci ships get a larger boost from field gens. Why not... Good idea Dalnar. +1

Escorts are shield/defense tanks anyway... anyone with more then one armour unit on a escort is a moron.

I'm serious though... your right the armour unit calc should work of the base hull numbers... it would suck hard for brels but it would be logical. They could also make armour units make more sense... they can become +10-30% style instead of the confusing +30s ect. The more I think about its probaly time the hull resistance "armour" math got a once over and converted to system that works the same way as shields cap/shield reg/turn ... perhaps its time everything worked in the same way.
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Last edited by antoniosalieri; 03-15-2013 at 11:58 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 16
03-16-2013, 12:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Perhaps they should make that change.

Escorts end up with a larger bonus from RCS due to base... Sci ships get a larger boost from field gens. Why not... Good idea Dalnar. +1

Escorts are shield/defense tanks anyway... anyone with more then one armour unit on a escort is a moron.

I'm serious though... your right the armour unit calc should work of the base hull numbers... it would suck hard for brels but it would be logical. They could also make armour units make more sense... they can become +10-30% style instead of the confusing +30s ect. The more I think about its probaly time the hull resistance "armour" math got a once over and converted to system that works the same way as shields cap/shield reg/turn ... perhaps its time everything worked in the same way.
Well, cruisers do get more effective hull hps from armor consoles even now. But the difference is not 300%. Because the latest escorts have hull rivaling the cruisers.

Actually, it does not make sense that turn consoles or "engineering systems" in general would be worse of cruisers just because they are large. The RCS generator would just be a lot of bigger. Hence I would prefer if all consoles had same effect in all ships.

Armor = simple dmg reduction per hit
RCS = flat turn rate bonus
etc.

Because it kinda feels bad, when you give a ship 5 engineering console slot, only to realize the main engineering console is 1/3 effective (1/4 compared to bug) on that ship...

Last edited by dalnar83; 03-16-2013 at 12:26 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 17
03-16-2013, 01:11 AM
Complicated subject really. Hard to fix the current system without a ton of unintended side effects.

Best 'fix' I can think of personally is to add a second type of console, or modifier for engine, that does in fact increase the base by a set value. Anything else will get...messy.

Or alternately they could just realize turn rate of a whale = not fun and simply increase all turn rates by say 3 and be done with it.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 18
03-16-2013, 06:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Well, cruisers do get more effective hull hps from armor consoles even now. But the difference is not 300%. Because the latest escorts have hull rivaling the cruisers.

Actually, it does not make sense that turn consoles or "engineering systems" in general would be worse of cruisers just because they are large. The RCS generator would just be a lot of bigger. Hence I would prefer if all consoles had same effect in all ships.

Armor = simple dmg reduction per hit
RCS = flat turn rate bonus
etc.

Because it kinda feels bad, when you give a ship 5 engineering console slot, only to realize the main engineering console is 1/3 effective (1/4 compared to bug) on that ship...
Changing RCS consoles that way would definitely help. One of the things that just doesn't make sense is that RCS consoles are basically useless for countering poor turn rates. Setting their flat rate so it's equivalent to a ship with 10-13 turn right now would still make them useful even for escorts, while giving cruisers and carriers incentive to carry something other than armor in their engineering slots.
Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostusthorn View Post
Inertia in game is the time your ship needs to change speed and direction.
The higher your inertia rating, the more direct and quicker your ship reacts to movement changes.
Yeah I believe you're correct; and, I've had a problem with this since I began playing. Higher inertia in the real physics of the known universe does not work like this. Someone messed up when designing the game and it's so pervasive apparenlty that they cannot change it to relate to real world physics. IMHO, that's unforgivable. Still, I'd still love to find a way to include the information and make a determination... I guess bigger numbers equals bigger turn rate, all the way around. Even so numbers are expressed in two methods here. One, gneralized non-percentage values, and percentage values. To paraphrase an old adage, there are two kinds of numbers in STO, percentages, and not percentages. Still, it would be helpful to know how the numbers relate. At least in consoles, weapons, and other items, you can see the value as it reflects values based on your ability; but, when it comes to engines, Not so much... where everhting should be based on speed of light, and faster than speed of light. But, even this breaks down when it comes to wormholes and the transwarp system. Some bases in reality would be nice; but, then it would presuppose we knew how it works. Which, of course, we don't, and thus this philosophy applies to Turn Rates, Inertia, and numbers for such in STO.

PS: Just checked out the rest of this forum and got the math. So where does inertia come in? I got lost on that one...

Last edited by cyberpapa; 03-21-2013 at 03:34 PM.
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