Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 264
# 31
03-21-2013, 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
JJTrek was released May 2009.
STO was not released until Feb 2010.

Abrams signed on to direct the new film in Feb 2007. Planning for the film had already started back in 2005. The original release date was to be Christmas 2008. It got pushed back to Summer 2009. The original filming had been completed around April 2008.

Cryptic took over from Perpetual and announced STO around July 2008. Again, the game was not released until Feb 2010.

How is what I said flawed again?
Think about it.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,330
# 32
03-21-2013, 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedumb4eva View Post
Think about it.
About how a movie that was in development at the same time and released before a game might have influenced that game...? Er...what am I supposed to be thinking about again?

Nimoy was there with Emmert to show initial gameplay trailers after having finished filming for JJTrek.

Are you trying to suggest that the two were oblivious to what the other was doing? There was a change in JJTrek to appeal to a larger audience - there have been multiple changes in STO to appeal to a larger audience.

You know...like...the big May update for STO...know what else is coming out in May?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
I.S.S. Arcadia, Mirror Universe Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 856
# 33
03-21-2013, 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
If the sci pops a fully buffed sensor scan on you... I would bet the sci FBP would in fact kill you much quicker then the alphed up version.
Ahh, memories

A fully buffed Sensor Scan + fbp3 combo is very, very effective when you use it correctly. A tractor beam is nice in that mix too, since you can keep your target facing you... another reason auto-fire is bad.

Main Topic:

As someone who has played sci through all of it's stages in STO, we are so close to replaceable right now, that it is scary. If it weren't for SNB, there realliy wouldn't be any reason for us. Everyone would just put a tac in an escort and see who can coordinate their alphas more efficiently.

I think my only problem with Tacs boosting sci power damage doesn't lie with the Tac Captains, but rather with the fact that S5 and the new skill tree took away the ability for Sci captains to boost their own powers in any meaningful way. Anyone remember the ST3, SciFleet combo? It could make anything you fired off ,with the buffs active, absolutely devastating. I believe that sci captains in sci ships should be able to do something devastating, with their boff abilities, every once in a while.

The current situation has truly limited sci to being the replacements for engineers, on top of their original duties. You go heal heavy with a Commander level CC ability (since you can't put a heal there), use your SNB and Sensor Scan when appropriate, and pump out some form of DOT or Tranny damage while trying to keep your teammates alive. Doing anything else lessens your value to a team right now, a problem compounded by the current state of Engineers...
Quote:
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ RIYOTT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ: Have you wondered that maybe all the things they've added to the gaem lately is to literally make PvP unbearable? Because everything they've added has no use in PvE at all; we know the big boss hates 14 yo min maxers
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 264
# 34
03-21-2013, 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
About how a movie that was in development at the same time and released before a game might have influenced that game...? Er...what am I supposed to be thinking about again?

Nimoy was there with Emmert to show initial gameplay trailers after having finished filming for JJTrek.

Are you trying to suggest that the two were oblivious to what the other was doing? There was a change in JJTrek to appeal to a larger audience - there have been multiple changes in STO to appeal to a larger audience.

You know...like...the big May update for STO...know what else is coming out in May?
Last post I will make on this topic.

Art inspiration from the movie, perhaps. Gameplay inspiration from the movie, no evidence. Just stahp.

Back to topic.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 35
03-21-2013, 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
tac captains dealing the most damage with everything and anything is how it should be. its the class that only deals damage, another captain type out damaging it in any way makes no sense.
Not its not. They should only receive the highest damage from using weapons not sci abilities. They should not boost them. Period.

Quote:
engineers suck because they are redundant due to defensive power creep, or theres something else available to everyone that mimics their skills. but in a lot of matches, with out a sci around no one would ever die
Engineers are ok. Their power systems stuff is great for cruisers and carriers. Not so good for escorts though BUT they sure beat science in escorts big time.

Quote:
energy siphon can be fairly potent actually, but TR has to be broken. it does basically nothing. having 99 PI cuts shield and energy drains in half, its rare you will find a challenging opponent without 99 PI, those sci skills definitely need work. but the rest of sci, especially properly doffed, is still devastating for controlling
Yep. All drains are absolutely non-functional. The only ship that can actually use drains is the breen warship and thats because it has the one extra 3-minute timer drain ability that when stacked with all others can actually shut down something. Sci ships however...cannot.

I did a simple test with a friend. Subsystem disable shield 3 on my end (9pnts flow cap, 3 flow cap consoles mk11 blue, max aux power) vs his 100 shield power (total).

He had no deflector equipped so no bonus to insulators from it. He only had 2 points in power insulator skill.

On my end, the subsystem shield 3 power description said it should drain 93 power.
Siphon and tyken each drained well over 20 each. Plasmonic leech shouldve taken a bit as well.

Fired subsystem first on its own. he only lost 10 power. Repeated this ten times counting only the times the shield did drop due to the proc...to make sure it wasnt a fluke.. only 10 power loss each time.

wow. from 93 down to 10 with just 2 points in insulators VS my much,much higher flow cap skill. geez.

Tossed everything at him. Siphon, tyken, polaron beams, subsystem shield 3...

he never went below 30 shield power. And he was sitting in the middle of the tyken.

So yeah.. there is no balance or love for sci. escort uber alles.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,860
# 36
03-21-2013, 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Not its not. They should only receive the highest damage from using weapons not sci abilities. They should not boost them. Period.
SAYS WHO? there is no authority who decides what makes sense or not. you (not necessarily you who im quoting) can bend over backwards all you want to justify tac buffs magically making weapons hit harder, but it makes no more scientific sense then those buffs causing tractor emitters, anomaly emitters, or what ever is casting these sci skills to deal more damage. whatever magic causes a phaser bank to hit harder has the same right to make a tractor emitter hit harder. your skills and consoles further back up how powerful these things are.

theres no difference really, the device on your ships that cast these sci skills are no different then a more conventional weapon bank. what class should deal the most damage in every ship? tac. which class should control and debuff the best in any ship? sci. those fundamental truths are at least functioning correctly. arbitrarily removing the tac effect from those energy and knetic sci skills would destroy an interesting synergy, and make a tac sci more useless then an eng scort.

use your scis correctly, follow the advise of the folks talking about how to make sci captains hurt, and stop being jellos of tacs. the damage output of tacs at their best is less then half as powerful as heals at their best. all they can do is shoot hoping to get somewere, they have no way to counter impenetrable defense. you do.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,330
# 37
03-21-2013, 05:12 PM
A martial artist can take a certain stance to increase the damage they do with their fists, feet, elbows, knees, etc - with weapons they might be wielding.

A martial artist can shout a kiai to also increase the above damage.

Give the martial artist a beaker full of acid...and...neither their stance nor any shout is going to increase the damage of that acid.

A sniper can take up a certain position to increase their chance of landing a more damaging shot.

A sniper can regulate their breathing to increase their chance of landing a more damaging shot.

No matter how the sniper positions themselves nor how they regulate their breathing...will they increase the acidity of the acid in a beaker if you give it to them.

A tank commander can inspire his crew...
A tank commander cannot inspire the acid in a beaker...

Everybody is aware of how fragile Tacs are because of their extraordinary egos and the need to feel special compared to everybody else...but it's a far cry from saying that they need to be nerfed doing XYZ which they should be doing and saying that...well, it's acid in a beaker - like WTF?

edit: Now if that martial artist had a degree in chemistry...that would definitely be cool to see what he or she could do.
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I.S.S. Arcadia, Mirror Universe Heavy Cruiser Retrofit

Last edited by virusdancer; 03-21-2013 at 05:46 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,860
# 38
03-21-2013, 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
A martial artist can take a certain stance to increase the damage they do with their fists, feet, elbows, knees, etc - with weapons they might be wielding.

A martial artist can shout a kiai to also increase the above damage.

Give the martial artist a beaker full of acid...and...neither their stance nor any shout is going to increase the damage of that acid.

A sniper can take up a certain position to increase their chance of landing a more damaging shot.

A sniper can regulate their breathing to increase their chance of landing a more damaging shot.

No matter how the sniper positions themselves nor how they regulate their breathing...will they increase the acidity of the acid in a beaker if you give it to them.

A tank commander can inspire his crew...
A tank commander cannot inspire the acid in a beaker...

Everybody is aware of how fragile Tacs are because of their extraordinary egos and the need to feel special compared to everybody else...but it's a far cry from saying that they need to be nerfed doing XYZ which they should be doing and saying that...well, it's acid in a beaker - like WTF?

edit: Now if that martial artist had a degree in chemistry...that would definitely be cool to see what he or she could do.
your analogies completely fail. there is no opportunity to apply a personal touch like there would be fireing a gun or mixing chemicals. there are 500 layers of technology between the person pressing the button and the effect, be it an energy beam or a repulsing tractor beam. there is a complete reliance on the vast technology to do everything on its own, other then activate itself. the skill points arent even skill points, its really how reenforced particular systems are on your ship, how big your particle generator is or what ever.

theres no way to explain how tac buffs can magically make weapons deal an extra 50% to twice their damage, just as theres no way to explain how they effect things that arent a beam, cannon or torpedo. trying to draw some line or distinction is a laughable cause.

you know what the difference between the button that fires weapon and the button that fires a tractor beam? nothing, other then its label or color. thanks to the magic of video games, a damage multiplier is applied to each, by the captain who's only role is to apply the most damage.

tacs make damage harderest, deal with it. get over your sci inferiority complex.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 131
# 39
03-21-2013, 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonfl View Post
Ahh, memories



I think my only problem with Tacs boosting sci power damage doesn't lie with the Tac Captains, but rather with the fact that S5 and the new skill tree took away the ability for Sci captains to boost their own powers in any meaningful way. Anyone remember the ST3, SciFleet combo? It could make anything you fired off ,with the buffs active, absolutely devastating. I believe that sci captains in sci ships should be able to do something devastating, with their boff abilities, every once in a while. ...
+2


FIX Science power in general first to bring them back to what they where before f2p.

This will make sci captain better, and maybe give sci captain another buff bigger than sci fleet to boost sci power.

Then look at tact effect sci.

Till then, if they remove Tact effect sci power , all sci ship would then be 100% useless in anything.

Sto Is like a house of cards if they take something away it make so many more things usless if they build more structure then they can take piece away more effectivly.

;and yes ST+ Sfleet, old shield stripper 12k , grav well that where like black wholes. Sto was a lot more fun back then, now its just dumb DHC builds
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Last edited by paradise1killer; 03-21-2013 at 07:25 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,829
# 40
03-21-2013, 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise1killer View Post
;and yes ST+ Sfleet, old shield stripper 12k , grav well that where like black wholes. Sto was a lot more fun back then, now its just dumb DHC builds
Well that's debatable... I'm not sure the 4+ sci teams need to make any sort of come back.

I think that is where a lot of the "sour grapes" comes from. (and I am not singling out anyone on that). At one time not that long ago Sci was very overpowered. Sci fleet was a joke, Stripping was out of control. (I'm sorry but the ability to 100% remove 45k worth of shielding in 3-5s was game breaking in a bad way... people complain about the dumb mines now... that is exactly what it was like with every sci ship popping a CPB3 tachyon combo)

I know some claim Cryptic went to far with 50% resists... but I will say in there defense if you forget about the QQ and just build your sci ship... you find the 50% isn't really that bad... strip builds still work mostly... drain builds due to issues with tykens blow, really though a TR fix still won't fix the issue with hazards simply wiping power drains completely. Gravity well... isn't near as bad as people claim... there was a time when it was basicly broken and I think people long for being able to slot one and spend no points at all on it. GW with 9 points in and a console or 2 does its job very well. (as long as you don't try to snare omega burning escorts with it)

Is SCI as strong as it was a year ago... NO... is that bad though. I don't think so. Frankly pre F2P and resists but post Sci Fleet it was laughably over powered to be flying a sci sci.

As it is Sci Sci is a great anti escort ship. Its easier for an average player to do a escort better then a sci sci... so its not shocking you see 3 escorts for every half decent sci ship. Still pretty much any premade is likely to have more Sci Sci then Tac Scorts... and NO that isn't simply because its an extra nuke. 1 Sci Ship can shut down pretty much any escort... a really well played sci ship can shut down 2.

No one wants to see 5 man sci teams with Mine nests and CPB x 5s again... I for one am glad Cryptic has implemented a check to that idea... Mines work better these days... CPB is still powerful with out being an Iwin button. (lets face it its the only way to strip shields that ignores resists even if it can be resisted by 50% at times)
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