Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 1 human boffs
03-22-2013, 04:00 AM
yesterday i was testing the effect of photonick shockwave and its disable as a viable option for pvp, that, of course, ended as a deception because the disable is ... well, there is not any disable, at least a disable that will let me to get that window of oportunity to do damage directly into the hull, because it doesnt disable shields, useless science skills ... aff, well, and my brother had a theta and i decided to use it against my vesta and see what happens... after my crew going to 0, i went to check out my hull repair and loled a lot,
human trait is leadership, incentivating the crew to repair the ship faster, but if there is no crew, what is there to incentivate ?

tested ship haves 750 crew, no biofunction and no khg passive with 5 human boffs


in combat : 163% in combat with all crew
146% without crew
out of combat : 280% hull repair rate with all crew
175% without crew


now without human boffs, same ship, without biofunction consoles or khg passive

in combat: 63% with all crew
46% without crew
out of combat: 140% with all crew
75% without crew

it just adds 100% hull repair even if you are out of crew, giving much more benefit to ships with less crew cap

isn't that op ? considering that an escort now can have a constant hazard emmiters on. causing it to tank almost as much as a cruiser or a carrier that is without human boffs or any crew? carriers are almost impossible to kill with 5 human boffs, of course if you are not tactical.
and what about klingons ? whats the effect this has on pvp ? i haven't thought about it, because i thought the repair rate given by human boffs was proportional to the %crew of the ship, but even with 0 crew i had almost 150% crew repair in combat, thats very stupid and unfair for ship with lots of crew, and incredibly op for ships with less ammounts of crew, compensating their lack of crew and suposed lack of hull repair

how it should be :
for example if you have a ship with 1000 crew, you are getting a 100% extra repair rate
but if you lost 500 crew, the human boffs should only give 50% repair rate
and if you are out of crew, the human boffs shouldnt give any repair rate (making the ammount of crew on the ship to matter again, just the way its suposed to be, not .king overpowering escorts)

each human boff provides 20% hull repair rate and 20% subsystem repair ( subsystem repair reaching 100% plus inertial dampers, that's a 150% resistance to disables, countering a Lot science disables and phaser procs, of course. )

that is a total of 100% repair rate, and that should be if you are 100% on crew, the 100% repair rate given by human boffs should be 100% based on the % of live crew you have on your ship

because the way it is right now is pretty op, making escorts to tank a lot, making things unbalanced to klingons, i am a fed, and i rarely play on my klingon alt, but i imagine how klingons feel about this

making human boffs to be proportional to the % of crew should fix it, if a ship is out of crew, you wont have any bonus hull repair, NOT making escorts to have more than 100% repair rate with 0 crew, regenerating more hull than a karfi with all the crew, i mean, isnt that the point of escorts having less amount of crew ? to regenerate less hull ?

but i guess this is what all people will say : "get over it man, you are a noob, learn to play as a scientist, do your incredible photonick shockwave to disable my skills for 0.1 seconds while i use my attack pattern omega that ONLY gives me dmg, resistance, turn rate, and immunity to almost all the ways you have to kill me! my jhas is good the way it is, regenerating lots of hull, and boosting all the dmg i can with my tactical captain skills, allowing me to boost feedbackpulse and repulsors better than you, causing the nerf of all your skills !"

but i dont care, i seek balance, how can you live with human boffs beeing a klingon ? knowing that your karfi isn't getting as much hull repair as your fed enemy escort out of crew ?
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude

Last edited by borgresearcher; 03-22-2013 at 04:02 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,796
# 2
03-22-2013, 04:10 AM
How would giving it scaling not be op the other way.

I think we have all had enough of 1000 crew cruisers and 2000 crew carriers that don't die... we don't need ships with 400% repair rates.

Really the human doffs needs to be smacked down hard... they shouldn't stack more then 1. Problem with them fixed. imo

Oh ya PS... Shockwave rocks... its your implementation that sucks. Its not the length of the disable.... its the fact that it is disabling. Its used to counter things like extend... it knocks channeled skills off... you mentioned you guys where playing with theta... get your brother to try to theta you and use shockwave see what happens. lol
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 03-22-2013 at 04:13 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 3
03-22-2013, 04:53 AM
i used theta for testing, we weren't pvping, and yes, psw job is to get rid tractors, tachyons, etc etc, i was testing if the disable window was enough to overload directly into the hull
and it doesnt rock, apo makes the clearing capability during 15 seconds, and it gives dmg, defense, resistance and turn rate as well, so i dont think the clearing capability of psw should be its only main purpouse

i can accept that human boffs increase hull repair, but not that much, and definitely not 100% without crew, making escorts to have as much as a carrier without human boffs, thats really bad for klingons, and really stupid because it is compensating a weak point of escorts, a lot, transphasic/plasma builds just dont work now, because it is an insane repair rate even without crew, its like a hazard emitters allways on, it might give some hull repair, but it shouldnt without crew
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude

Last edited by borgresearcher; 03-22-2013 at 04:55 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 4
03-22-2013, 04:54 AM
Before you nerf the leadership boffs after they were broken for 3 years. Maybe it would be better to actually solve the whole crew element. Rght now, ships that have less cree members are actually much better in terms of natural hull regen. Right now, ships like IDIOTIC BUG SHIPS, profit from leadership boffs much more than cruisers or carriers for example.

Having 1000 crew is actually disadvantage.

There are also some bugs I have documented during my experimenting (my steamrunner sits at 420% hull regen), but I wont bug report anything. Past experiences with "fixing bugs" changed my view point about bug reporting.

Simply, because cryptic won't remedy the whole situation, but like usual just blindly nerf everything.

Truth is, leadership boffs won't save you against SNB + SPIKE, the only way how to kill anything in STO pvp atm anyway.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 66
# 5
03-22-2013, 04:56 AM
I'll be looking forward to your posts on nerfing Duty officers next.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 6
03-22-2013, 04:57 AM
exactly, there is no point on having ships with losts of crew, since you have better results with ships that were suposed to have low repair rates because of low ammounts of crew, human boffs just came to clearify that
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,096
# 7
03-22-2013, 04:58 AM
The regen is based off of the percentage of your crew. A combination of Theta and torps should neutralize the effects of Human BOFFs pretty quickly. Given the crappy regen rate - they're not going to get back to any substantial rate...any time soon.

The crew loss/disable mechanics work contrary to what quite a few people see in that tooltip. They see it as a lesser (which it states) amount - so the smaller amount. It doesn't work that way. It's actually the greater amount - the amount that will result in the least remaining crew. So something that reads as the lesser of 20% or 20 (where 20% might be 200) - it's going to take the 200 rather than the 20. Yeah, mind-boggling. Mix that in with crew regen - well, yeah - Theta/torp them - meh.

Thing is - some folks (personally I took it off my ships as well) feel that Theta is Evil, lol. So with a little bit of gear swapping and spending skill points in Subsystem Repair - well, it's not as difficult to offset that crew loss and thus run with those Human BOFFs regenerating 3%+ of hull per second. That's...just kind of insane.

Probably one of the reasons that Theta has started to show up more again, eh? Kind of like the increased use of Trans with the proliferation of Elite Fleet Shields, eh?

There should definitely be a cap on how many can stack - given what one can do to keep crew alive and the "opposition" to using Theta...or perhaps folks should just start spamming Theta, eh? Meh...

As for the Shocks - yeah, like Antonio said - they're great for interrupts. They follow the somewhat broken mechanic of a lack of resist before the effect that most Sci does - just a reduction of the effect after it happens.

Heck, they can also be fun for positioning - disorientating, etc. Somebody's trying to escape that warp poo or trying to outrun some mines - get in front of them and bounce those suckers back. Or heck, you see a buttload of mines following one of your guys and you don't have something else handy - shock 'em.

I suppose it's in the way I look at Sci. Bill Nye with his dirty bag o' tricks. It's not Bill Nye with a bag full of kaboom.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 8
03-22-2013, 04:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnumoftheblack View Post
I'll be looking forward to your posts on nerfing Duty officers next.
i wont be looking to your posts about how you feel good in your tactical officer
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 9
03-22-2013, 05:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borgresearcher View Post
exactly, there is no point on having ships with losts of crew, since you have better results with ships that were suposed to have low repair rates because of low ammounts of crew
Yes, but if you blindly nerf leadership boffs, you will actually hurt cruisers most. My G-X is somwhat playable in PuGs with 500% hull regen and 20s RSP. Remove the leadership boffs and it's back where it was before they fixed them.

There is just 4 changes that needs to be done:

1) At 0 crew, you should not regen hull

2) More base crew > higher natural regen by default

3) fixing dmg to crew

4) fixing crew after theta (it wont regen until you die and respawn)

Crying for nerf leadership, just means you will remove the regen, but the underlying issues with crew remain.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 10
03-22-2013, 05:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
The regen is based off of the percentage of your crew. A combination of Theta and torps should neutralize the effects of Human BOFFs pretty quickly. Given the crappy regen rate - they're not going to get back to any substantial rate...any time soon.

The crew loss/disable mechanics work contrary to what quite a few people see in that tooltip. They see it as a lesser (which it states) amount - so the smaller amount. It doesn't work that way. It's actually the greater amount - the amount that will result in the least remaining crew. So something that reads as the lesser of 20% or 20 (where 20% might be 200) - it's going to take the 200 rather than the 20. Yeah, mind-boggling. Mix that in with crew regen - well, yeah - Theta/torp them - meh.

Thing is - some folks (personally I took it off my ships as well) feel that Theta is Evil, lol. So with a little bit of gear swapping and spending skill points in Subsystem Repair - well, it's not as difficult to offset that crew loss and thus run with those Human BOFFs regenerating 3%+ of hull per second. That's...just kind of insane.

Probably one of the reasons that Theta has started to show up more again, eh? Kind of like the increased use of Trans with the proliferation of Elite Fleet Shields, eh?

There should definitely be a cap on how many can stack - given what one can do to keep crew alive and the "opposition" to using Theta...or perhaps folks should just start spamming Theta, eh? Meh...

As for the Shocks - yeah, like Antonio said - they're great for interrupts. They follow the somewhat broken mechanic of a lack of resist before the effect that most Sci does - just a reduction of the effect after it happens.

Heck, they can also be fun for positioning - disorientating, etc. Somebody's trying to escape that warp poo or trying to outrun some mines - get in front of them and bounce those suckers back. Or heck, you see a buttload of mines following one of your guys and you don't have something else handy - shock 'em.

I suppose it's in the way I look at Sci. Bill Nye with his dirty bag o' tricks. It's not Bill Nye with a bag full of kaboom.
virusdancer, the problem here is that, even if you hit him with theta and torpedos, those 100% extra repair rate stays there even if he is with 0 crew
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude
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