Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 31
03-21-2013, 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I think the problem is actually in the content design, the ships themselves are mostly designed well.

The problem is that Cruisers and Sci ships were built to do things that are almost never required in PvE.

That's a system wide problem with PvE.
A thousand times this. If content wasn't 100% a dps race, the player-driven focus on pure-dps wouldn't happen.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 47
# 32
03-21-2013, 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I think the problem is actually in the content design, the ships themselves are mostly designed well.

The problem is that Cruisers and Sci ships were built to do things that are almost never required in PvE.

That's a system wide problem with PvE.
they still can redesign ships to fit current content. you can say im also fan of trinity, but i dont see why sto shouldnt be different, if they change ships to fit current content .. that works for me
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,611
# 33
03-21-2013, 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningstar View Post
they have different roles, even if you want you cant use for oposite role with not even near same efficiency.
as if there is or there is not content to support those roles is another matter.
none of which has any bearing on inherent flaws in the system.
none of which counters what i said
all your post does is state the system as is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I think the problem is actually in the content design, the ships themselves are mostly designed well.

The problem is that Cruisers and Sci ships were built to do things that are almost never required in PvE.

That's a system wide problem with PvE.
its a problem with the entire presupposition of the trinity system.
outside of very limited scenarios with fixed guides & boundaries, it collapses.
it requires classes that suffer when isolated.
it requires classes that get set into predetermined team templates with little room for change.
it requires that the entire game and all content be made conforming to its needs.

not so with the foundation model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redz4tw View Post
can you say attack pattern angry forumers 3?
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 47
# 34
03-21-2013, 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post

none of which has any bearing on inherent flaws in the system.
none of which counters what i said
it do, they are not just INTENdEd to have roles, they HAVE them.
if they didnt, you could play any ship and it wouldnt make difference, but it do.

and which system dont have flaws ? and still trynity system worked fine in like 90% of mmos.
the problem here is that ships are made to fit into it, but there isnt anymore content that support that.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,611
# 35
03-21-2013, 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningstar View Post
it do, they are not just INTENdEd to have roles, they HAVE them.
if they didnt, you could play any ship and it wouldnt make difference, but it do.
yea, they do have roles, horrible slanted in favor one one class roles

slanted because the trinity system is a load of tripe that breaks as soon as its exposed to anything beyond its narrow tolerances.

something that need not be so, and is only so due to sloppy implementation of an improper system for the environment.

that you think you cant have specialisation and balance at the same time tells me you havnt played many genera's of games.

total annihilation is a great example of a game that ended up with 4000+ distinct & mostly balanced units in it by the time modders had got through creating the mega-mod packs it had and where quite well balanced.

homeworld :complex mod
is one that, although less diverse than that, is still balanced and features hundreds of specialised craft.

Quote:
and which system dont have flaws ? and still trynity system worked fine in like 90% of mmos.
the problem here is that ships are made to fit into it, but there isnt anymore content that support that.
in reality? not one.
but there is a great deal of difference between applying a nffp system and one that allows the game to function in a way that is discrimitory to the majority of game play.

which is what the fudges trinity system has gotten us.
total uncontested dominance of dhc escort performance over PvE content
and majority dominance over PvP content, where only occasionally will a team of 5 escorts not be the victors over others
Quote:
Originally Posted by redz4tw View Post
can you say attack pattern angry forumers 3?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,072
# 36
03-21-2013, 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
snip
Let me real quick list a few of the difference between STO and CoH and why they are not applicable to one another. Just a few.

1) No resource system. We have no mana, no energy, nothing like that. This is such a huge difference it is not even funny.

2) No hyper-specialization. In CoH a tank could mitigate double the amount of damage a blaster could. If you really think cruisers can take double the punishment of escorts you need to start doing some math. Escorts by themselves cannot even deal double the damage of a cruiser if the cruiser can pack DHCs or is properly min/max out with beams.

3) No exclusive capabilities. In CoH many toons lacked the ability to do something, be it a form of CC, debuff, buff, heal, etc etc. In STO every ship has at minimum enough ensign/lt slots to cover the basics that it will want/need.

Finally if you 'force' people to bring tanks you end up with one of two situations.

1) Only uber skilled/geared players can partake in the content via premades
2) Escorts that are properly setup will tank it anyway.

The difference in sustain and EHP between my steamrunner and a standard cruiser is about the same as the difference you see taking a standard Mk 10 purple shield and replacing it with a Mk 12 Maco.

O and the comment about them all having the same exact EHP, that was in reference to the base ships without buffs being applied to them. And guess what, I'm pretty sure an APO + EPTS 1 + Tac Team grants me more survivability than EPTS 3 + Tac Team. I would throw in an extra ensign engineer ability for the cruiser for sustain but yeah Tac team trumps Eng team.

Content changes will not fix the problem. Your options are to abandon the out-dated concepts of tanks and healers like the ARPG genre has already and instead focus on other things or the entire game would need a redesign. Although in the end it matters not what we think/suggest/etc as I don't really think it makes any difference.
STO's F2P is basically an inferior experience for the masses at no cost being subsidized by a handful of whales seeking whatever it is that motivates them to spend hundreds if not thousands on a game.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 47
# 37
03-22-2013, 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
yea, they do have roles, horrible slanted in favor one one class roles

slanted because the trinity system is a load of tripe that breaks as soon as its exposed to anything beyond its narrow tolerances.

that you think you cant have specialisation and balance at the same time tells me you havnt played many genera's of games.

in reality? not one.
but there is a great deal of difference between applying a nffp system and one that allows the game to function in a way that is discrimitory to the majority of game play.
so we both agree trinity system exist in sto, implementation of content to support it is other matter as i said several times.

you can have specialisation, and complete lack of balance, i never said trinity system ensure some balance, and yes i played a lot mmos, some of which that dont use this system, like guildwars

problem in sto inst trinity system, or content separated
problem is ships are made with roles, and content is made in such way it dont require such and favor dps. game gonna work fine if ether of that 2 is fixed to be compatable with others. ie change content to fit roles of the ships, or change ships in ways that they can perform nearly equal in any situation.
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 278
# 38
03-22-2013, 08:26 AM
The problems I see with STO's "trinity" is:
  • PvE content is all about damage; just about everything in an elite STF has the capacity to kill you, and the best ability to counteract that is a Tactical ability.
  • Crew damage is severely broken; this is one of the areas where cruisers are supposed to excel, but since crew are killed so quickly their innate hull healing is non-existent. This should be the area that distinguishes cruisers from escorts that have practically the same hull points.
  • Threat is a skill, or a science console. What Engineering captains should really have is some kind of high-threat ability that will pretty much instantly direct a targeted enemy to attack them, but significantly reduces the damage that the tank sustains, and should ideally be based on crew so that once crew are fixed the ability will work best on cruisers but be a death sentence to other ship types.
  • Too many abilities are available in ensign and lieutenant slots; the most powerful self-healing and friend-healing abilities for engineers and science stations respectively should be limited to Lt. Commander and Commander slots only; as it stands right now anybody can take Transfer Shield Strength and Hazard Emitters, which might be okay for cruisers, but doesn't suit escorts who can end up friend-healing themselves. Moving them into Lt. Commander and Commander slots would make ships like Star Cruisers more specialised as the only ones that can run a hybrid tank/healer for example. Science abilities should be focused on direct offence attacks in Ensign/Lieutenant slots, engineering move Auxiliary to X powers down to make Emergency Power to X powers up, likewise with Extend Shields. Basically the current engineering ability layout is largely backwards, as it means that engineering focused ships have more offensive options (directed energy modulation, aceton beam, boarding party) but I'm not sure it should be that way around.
  • Tactical Team shouldn't be the go-to power for survival; escorts should be forced to turn to survive, with tactical team's distribution effect instead moving to a Lt. Commander or Commander engineering ability, but maybe give everyone access to some shield auto-distribution as an effect of shield distribution duty officers. This leaves Tactical Team to become a pure offence/repel boarders combo ability.
  • Attack Patterns currently do a heap of things really well, almost just as well as the dedicated powers available to engineering/science officers. They need to be reduced in effectiveness, or given a downside, for example attack pattern beta/alpha giving a defensive penalty to counteract their offensive boost.
____________________
Game Balance - Ship Size and Wingmates
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 39
03-22-2013, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningstar View Post
game gonna work fine if ether of that 2 is fixed to be compatable with others. ie change content to fit roles of the ships, or change ships in ways that they can perform nearly equal in any situation.
We're a lot closer to the second case since the first would require a total overhaul of the campaigns and AI, while the second is basically just numerical tweaks to existing systems.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 40
03-22-2013, 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by haravikk;8747251[*
Tactical Team shouldn't be the go-to power for survival; escorts should be forced to turn to survive, with tactical team's distribution effect instead moving to a Lt. Commander or Commander engineering ability, but maybe give everyone access to some shield auto-distribution as an effect of shield distribution duty officers. This leaves Tactical Team to become a pure offence/repel boarders combo ability.[/list]
The fundamental problem with Tactical Team is that it transfers shield power much much faster than is otherwise possible. Manual balancing, i.e. shield balancing based on player skill and awareness of the situation, simply can't keep up with the massive damage spikes. Especially when the NPCs start throwing torpedoes, because they cheat.

In an ancient thread about the roles of different ships, I argued that cruisers should balance shields nearly as fast as tactical teams can, if they use manual balancing to direct all their power in a specific direction. Cruisers should also have something like Sensor Analysis, but defensive and threat-generating in nature; basically the longer a cruiser is engaged with an enemy, the less damage that enemy would do to the cruiser and the less likely that enemy would ever change targets.
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