Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 54
# 1 What to do about Crafting
03-22-2013, 09:45 AM
So I popped on here and saw a bunch of threads about crafting. For the most part, they are whining about how bad it sucks, which is widely acknowledged, with very little about what to be done about it. People are talking about item power levels and things, and while that's a symptom of the problem, it doesn't fix the fact that crafting is entirely too much effort for not enough reward as things presently stand. So I'm starting a new thread for visions of STO crafting, and I'm going to lead with mine and my explanation about why.

It's the future, we have replicators to make everything. No one builds everything by hand-you're a starship captain, you're too busy.

Before I go further, my whole theory about game systems in STO is that they should be utilized to make the game feel more like Star Trek. So here we go.

This is my opinion, and I'm just throwing it out there. Crafting, in the vein where we go to crafting stations to craft, in Star Trek, makes zero sense. I understand the game didn't launch with Duty Officers. Why not eliminate the entire existing crafting system and put several series of DOFF missions at Memory Alpha? After all, it's not the Captain who is EVER in engineering, tinkering with stuff for hours-it's usually the Chief Engineer or some science personnel. When you have completed enough chains, which would benefit your Science, Engineering, and Development xp, you could have a shot at making something. Personally, I would LOVE to be able to craft an awesome Quantum Torpedo. I'm JUST throwin' it out there. ;p

I think we're pretty good on primary systems like shields, engines, and deflector arrays since the set bonuses are likely enough to make other options there less competitive, so I would suggest focusing the items made on weapon systems and consoles. On the character scale, there can and should be something about making the melee weapons that are so iconic in Star Trek, and possibly one of those could be an item for KDF that allows you to undertake a mission to craft your own super purple bat'leth in the volcano in the footsteps of Kahless. KDF players would LOVE that. I'm sure you could do something similar with lirpas as well.

The other side of this is the anomalies. Between the at-times unresponsive mini game, and the fact crafting is terrible, I avoid scanning them anymore. I hate the drops clogging up my inventory for a handful of junk I will NEVER have the patience to grind up to. But in reality, there aren't tons and tons of nodes. Why not make the data something you sell for some energy credits? Particularly at the beginning of the game, I'd have gone out of my way to make a couple thousand EC's. I would say crafting nodes at end game should be worth no less than 2k EC's and no more than ~3.5k EC's. It wouldn't be efficient to run around JUST scanning nodes to make all your money, but it would be just enough that if you had a LOUSY run of loot on your missions you wouldn't feel like you got nowhere that day.

*added bolding for emphasis, hope it isn't too much. -Tau
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,466
# 2
03-22-2013, 09:48 AM
Want to make crafting not suck? It's simple:

Drastically reduce (or preferably completely remove) dilithium costs. Commodity/Trace input would potentially need to be adjusted as a result.

Allow selectable mods on items (IE: Choose the 3 mods you want on your Space guns as opposed to choosing from a tiny list of terrible combinations).

Add additional Crafting only sets.

Allow crafted items to go up to the Mk XII tier (with appropriate exorbitant non-diltihium resource costs)


You're welcome.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 54
# 3
03-22-2013, 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Want to make crafting not suck? It's simple:

Drastically reduce (or preferably completely remove) dilithium costs. Commodity/Trace input would potentially need to be adjusted as a result.

Allow selectable mods on items (IE: Choose the 3 mods you want on your Space guns as opposed to choosing from a tiny list of terrible combinations).

Add additional Crafting only sets.

Allow crafted items to go up to the Mk XII tier (with appropriate exorbitant non-diltihium resource costs)


You're welcome.
See, this I don't think will work because it will STILL be lame, unexciting, and frankly, not Trekky.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,873
# 4
03-22-2013, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Want to make crafting not suck? It's simple:

Drastically reduce (or preferably completely remove) dilithium costs. Commodity/Trace input would potentially need to be adjusted as a result.

Allow selectable mods on items (IE: Choose the 3 mods you want on your Space guns as opposed to choosing from a tiny list of terrible combinations).

Add additional Crafting only sets.

Allow crafted items to go up to the Mk XII tier (with appropriate exorbitant non-diltihium resource costs)


You're welcome.

This one. Remove unreplicable crap, add mark XII purples.

And how would crafting be "trekky" . Put Kirk's face on the crafting interface ? Derp, some people got some weird ideas.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,247
# 5
03-22-2013, 10:30 AM
I think the crafting system is too easy.

I like the idea about being able to select craft specific modifiers ... that makes a ton of sense to me. "Captain I've improved targeting by 10%" translation; took standard Mk XII Torp, and added an Acc Modifier.

So the Input would be the Standard, common, variety... along with some matierials output would be the next tier up (uncommon). Etc. I always thought it was kind of funny that you get a shield... without putting in a shield. But I digress.

To me this sounds very treky. Star Trek VI Undiscovered Country... BoP that can fire cloaked... McCoy and Spock head to upgrade a Photon Torp to make an emission seeking one...

I think that is the type of crafting I would like to see. Let us take the commons, and make the Uncommon, then Rare, then Very Rare. Drop the Dilithium costs entirel... make schematics and materials harder to come by... Hell Schematics for nifty stuff should be mission reward only.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 54
# 6
03-22-2013, 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpalelena View Post
This one. Remove unreplicable crap, add mark XII purples.

And how would crafting be "trekky" . Put Kirk's face on the crafting interface ? Derp, some people got some weird ideas.
See, you just outright don't get it. You think crafting should be like it is in WoW, but this isn't WoW, this is Star Trek. It has a completely different flavor here. Trekky isn't stamping a face onto an object, it would be showing a respect to how things work in the star fairing universe. I'm not going to bother explaining that dilithium sinks are here to stay because it's obviously beyond your ken.

But here, let me help you out. To sum up the both of you, you put forward lousy ideas that neither change the fundamental system nor address its serious flaws. Crafting in this game sucks at every level, and having marginally better loot out of it won't fix what's wrong, though it might funnel a few more credits into the pockets of the people who bleed their eyes out working with it.

Crafting stations in an obscure place, hunting particle traces which you turn into stuff? It's all contrived. You have to fix the concept before you can fix the execution.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,466
# 7
03-22-2013, 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
But here, let me help you out. To sum up the both of you, you put forward lousy ideas that neither change the fundamental system nor address its serious flaws. Crafting in this game sucks at every level, and having marginally better loot out of it won't fix what's wrong, though it might funnel a few more credits into the pockets of the people who bleed their eyes out working with it.
Doesn't address serious flaws?

Dilithum costs are ridiculous in crafting right now. How does significantly lowering/removing them not fix that?

Crafting becomes pointless at end-game as none of the gear scales to Mk XII. How does allowing gear to scale to Mk XII not address that flaw?

At present, crafted set gear is woefully outclassed by non-crafted set gear. How does adding new crafted set gear that's on par with mission oriented set gear not fix that issue?

People don't bother to craft because the items that are crafted have (in most cases) absolutely terrible mod selection. How does allowing players to chose their mods not address that concern?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
Crafting stations in an obscure place, hunting particle traces which you turn into stuff? It's all contrived. You have to fix the concept before you can fix the execution.
So your problem is with the fact that in an era where replicators exist (which by the way, cannot make everything, nor can they do the fine mechanical work that's necessary for most advanced construction) you object to having to actually put some effort into crafting to get stuff?

Argue that line, instead of the argument that fixing the glaring flaws in STO's crafting system wouldn't actually fix the glaring flaws in STO's crafting system.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 196
# 8
03-22-2013, 10:43 AM
Remove it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,043
# 9
03-22-2013, 10:51 AM
I'm going to write my responses under the assumption that the current crafting system will be replaced with variation of the Reputation system. Nobody's said that's what's going to happen, but it seems logical to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
[BWhy not eliminate the entire existing crafting system and put several series of DOFF missions at Memory Alpha?
I think a lot of players probably enjoy doing it themselves, but I think the doff missions are a good idea. Why not have a mix of do-it-yourself and doff missions which grant "Crafting marks/XP?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
I would suggest focusing the items made on weapon systems and consoles. On the character scale, there can and should be something about making the melee weapons that are so iconic in Star Trek, and possibly one of those could be an item for KDF that allows you to undertake a mission to craft your own super purple bat'leth in the volcano in the footsteps of Kahless. KDF players would LOVE that. I'm sure you could do something similar with lirpas as well.
New, unique-to-crafting items would definitely be welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
Between the at-times unresponsive mini game, and the fact crafting is terrible, I avoid scanning them anymore. I hate the drops clogging up my inventory for a handful of junk I will NEVER have the patience to grind up to.
I agree that some changes could be made here. Maybe scanned particles could be exchanged for more "Crafting Marks?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Drastically reduce (or preferably completely remove) dilithium costs. Commodity/Trace input would potentially need to be adjusted as a result.
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Allow selectable mods on items (IE: Choose the 3 mods you want on your Space guns as opposed to choosing from a tiny list of terrible combinations).
That's a great idea, but probably non-trivial to implement, as I don't think the engine allows mods to be "added" to an item...every possible variant of every single item would have to be hard-coded into the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Add additional Crafting only sets.

Allow crafted items to go up to the Mk XII tier (with appropriate exorbitant non-diltihium resource costs)
Yup. Although dilithium would probably continue to be part of the equation, same as every other system that grants Mk XII gear.

-------------------------------------------------------
Here's what I think would be awesome for crafting: the crafting system should be the way to upgrade mission reward items which normally cap at Mk XI to Mk XII.

The Lobi store is currently doing this for a few items (e.g., the Crystalline set). IMO, the crafting system would be the best place for it. People could craft Mk XII versions of the TOS phasers, the Efficient Impulse Engines, the Paratrinic shields, and all of the other mission reward stuff.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 54
# 10
03-22-2013, 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post


So your problem is with the fact that in an era where replicators exist (which by the way, cannot make everything, nor can they do the fine mechanical work that's necessary for most advanced construction) you object to having to actually put some effort into crafting to get stuff?

Argue that line, instead of the argument that fixing the glaring flaws in STO's crafting system wouldn't actually fix the glaring flaws in STO's crafting system.
Oh, it's almost like you actually read my first post, except clearly haven't.

Again, you're going to have to accept that we're probably stuck with ridiculous Dilithium sinks. The entire system is full of misery, so it makes sense to fix the entire system. 'Crafting' as it was implemented should never have been put into a science fiction game, but it was. I DID argue the line that the concept was stupid-I was nice about it.

By the same token, let's put back in your face about effort, you're asking for easier crafting as well. That's what removal of the dilithium drain is for you-a crafting nerf to make it easier and take less effort. But get this-it actually DOES make sense that Dilithium-an energy resource-would be expended in the construction of advanced equipment! Throw the unereplicatable materials out, sure-they're just an intermediary abstraction anyhow.

Also, so long as crafting something costs an amount of Dilithium that is relative to the cost of buying one of the extremely rare Fleet items, the Dilithium sink in crafting isn't working ANYHOW because anyone with half a brain will get their items there instead.

What you want is a reduction in cost. That's probably reasonable-I'm certain that the cost is completely out of whack with other systems in game, as that was the exact problem with Champions Online. What I want is them to realize the same thing they realized in CO-everything about the crafting is bad. The execution is awkward, the concept doesn't make sense, on and on. Scrap it and make something good out of it. Since my point is to throw out the old system ANYWAYS, why not design it from the ground up to be more effortless? Again, YOU are the captain. You're not sitting around in engineering tinkering, you have a ship and away teams to lead.

Honestly, this gets even worse the second you look at it from a Klingon perspective.
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