Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 11
03-22-2013, 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
Oh, it's almost like you actually read my first post, except clearly haven't.
Are you physically incapable of having a conversation with someone without insulting them, or do you just feel the need to spew acid at anything with a pulse? You put forth an idea, people presented their opinions on it. Instead of having a rational conversation on those ideas you jump straight down people's throats.

Not helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
Again, you're going to have to accept that we're probably stuck with ridiculous Dilithium sinks. The entire system is full of misery, so it makes sense to fix the entire system. 'Crafting' as it was implemented should never have been put into a science fiction game, but it was. I DID argue the line that the concept was stupid-I was nice about it.
I accept nothing as immutable. If I feel something needs to be changed, I say so. The crafting system has a solid foundation: you go find resources, you use said resources to get stuff that you want.

What's lacking is the implementation, and tuning of costs associated with said implementation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
By the same token, let's put back in your face about effort, you're asking for easier crafting as well. That's what removal of the dilithium drain is for you-a crafting nerf to make it easier and take less effort. But get this-it actually DOES make sense that Dilithium-an energy resource-would be expended in the construction of advanced equipment! Throw the unereplicatable materials out, sure-they're just an intermediary abstraction anyhow.
I guess you missed the part about adjusting trace/commodity inputs to compensate for dilithium removal. Being limited to crafting one or two items per week is an absurd shackle to put on crafters.

Secondly, anti-matter reactors are far from the only means of power generation in the 25th century. So don't even start claiming that dilithium = energy resource unless you're planning on having people carry around fusion-oriented currencies, as well as making them go and hunt anti-matter.

Thirdly, don't pretend that dilithium is a coherent in-universe resource. Cryptic took a Trek-related name, and slapped it on the mechanism they use to artificially gate progress. Nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
What you want is a reduction in cost. That's probably reasonable-I'm certain that the cost is completely out of whack with other systems in game, as that was the exact problem with Champions Online. What I want is them to realize the same thing they realized in CO-everything about the crafting is bad. The execution is awkward, the concept doesn't make sense, on and on. Scrap it and make something good out of it. Since my point is to throw out the old system ANYWAYS, why not design it from the ground up to be more effortless? Again, YOU are the captain. You're not sitting around in engineering tinkering, you have a ship and away teams to lead.
What I want is a system that isn't completely redundant and inferior to a straight up npc store.

As I said above, the crafting system has a decent foundation. It's simple, straightforward, and with the right tweaks (especially in the mid-refinement area) it can easily be made into a vibrant means of advancing a character.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
Honestly, this gets even worse the second you look at it from a Klingon perspective.
Elaborate.

Last edited by stirling191; 03-22-2013 at 11:06 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 54
# 12
03-22-2013, 11:20 AM
Just a note here-you insulted me first. But to elaborate on the KDF point...

You're a KDF member. Proud Warrior of House... whatever. The Empire has enemies, and your ship is on the front lines, proud to be defending and promoting the ideals and valor of the empire...

Except that you're off in engineering or wherever, tinkering with crap no one wants because everyone is requisitioning better things through NPC's (as you stated). You bring shame and dishonor to your family, and should be shunned, you awful, lousy Klingon.

Look. The literal reason here that I feel strongly that the current crafting system is just garbage is mostly the arms race theory in design. What role is crafting supposed to play? Currently, it's an outdated money sink for players dumb enough to participate in it, and that is obvious from merely the first few hundred points in.

Your solution, to add mk XII items that are competitive with what's out there is good on paper, and bad in practice BECAUSE of the arms race theory. Every patch, or at least every so often, they will want to release a new rep, or something new with NPC's to keep player interest up. One of the easiest ways to make players want to pursue that content is new, better, flashier gear. If you update the crafting system to current standards, you bump up the power level in the game (which many people on the forums claims is a little whacked anyhow), AND you create a situation where next patch, we'll see Mk XIII and Mk IV super items because the devs want to get everyone excited about the new stuff.

Conversely, if you make crafting about items that aren't widely available from other segments of the game, it gives the devs a reason to keep updating crafting every patch, which keeps guys like yourself happy (or well, happier) in the long run. Crafting couldeven become about fun things at that point, and no one would mind because there is ALWAYS a market for fun.

And finally... just a consideration for you... No one is going to have money or resources to grab your crafted items until they finish getting the rep items they want because they're sinking a sizable chunk of their resources into the daily rep grinds. If you work WITH this consideration, you realize that prices for everything have a pretty low critical mass-which is good for somethings and REALLY BAD for expensive crafting. I grind out my MACO set, why am I going to want to Aegis? Seriously, *why*? I also consider it "dumb" that the supreme crafted items compete with the Rep items-that's just a lose/lose situation.

Do you get that? Are we at least one the same page now?
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 13
03-22-2013, 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
Just a note here-you insulted me first.
Actually, you start off pretty insultingly in just the second sentence of your OP regarding the existing threads related to crafting and continue a condescending your-ideas-suck tone through every reply you have posted so far.

But hey - be defensive and condescending. Its the internet, after all.

And I think they are going to have to either reduce the dilithium costs by a large degree or vastly improve the quality of the crafted items before anyone will be terribly interested in revisiting crafting. I craft the occasional Aegis set for an alt or a friend, but other than that, there isn't much worth the cost.

And a crafting mat cost reduction is still a sink. Its just not a wildly inappropriate sink like it currently is.
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 275
# 14 o.o
03-22-2013, 11:56 AM
While the particles are here to stay there are things that can be done. Dilithium must be removed from the equasion in favor of boss drops or mission rewards. Crafting must be given more unique items and consumables.
I suggested that they add more unique sets to crafting for ground and space. I would like to see a ground set that includes a kit(it would come in various marks) that encourages people to play the role of a tank or a medic.
Also, as other games do we need multiple crafting trees. Science officers can craft superior consumables and devices for a player to use. Engineers can make superior ship consoles and armor/shields. And, tacs can make weapons and consumables such as grenades or items that can upgrade your weapons fire power by adding an additional mod.
There are a lot of creative fixes and we need to see them. Crafting has always been an important part of any mmo and should be a players primary way of earning money not selling keys.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 15
03-22-2013, 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
Just a note here-you insulted me first.
Oh really?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
So I popped on here and saw a bunch of threads about crafting. For the most part, they are whining about how bad it sucks, which is widely acknowledged, with very little about what to be done about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
See, you just outright don't get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
I'm not going to bother explaining that dilithium sinks are here to stay because it's obviously beyond your ken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
But here, let me help you out. To sum up the both of you, you put forward lousy ideas that neither change the fundamental system nor address its serious flaws.
All before I called you on it. If you're going to lie, at least do it in a way that isn't instantly noticeable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
You're a KDF member. Proud Warrior of House... whatever. The Empire has enemies, and your ship is on the front lines, proud to be defending and promoting the ideals and valor of the empire...

Except that you're off in engineering or wherever, tinkering with crap no one wants because everyone is requisitioning better things through NPC's (as you stated). You bring shame and dishonor to your family, and should be shunned, you awful, lousy Klingon.

Nice pack of assumptions you're making there, notably that every KDF member is a Klingon and that they all ascribe to the exact same cultural stereotypes, but I digress.

None of that makes a crafting system less viable for a KDF character than a Starfleet character. If you can't handle the fact that your own character is doing what you appear to believe is menial labor (which assembling, experimenting with and improving massively powerful pieces of machinery most certainly is not), than simply put yourself in the shoes of the genius engineer you keep in the bowels of your ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post

Look. The literal reason here that I feel strongly that the current crafting system is just garbage is mostly the arms race theory in design.
Translation: I don't like gear based MMO progression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
What role is crafting supposed to play?
What crafting should be is a viable means to create gear that makes the game more enjoyable in a way that is neither superior, nor inferior, to other methods with the same goal. For some that will be vanity items. For others it will be powerful equipment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post

Your solution, to add mk XII items that are competitive with what's out there is good on paper, and bad in practice BECAUSE of the arms race theory. Every patch, or at least every so often, they will want to release a new rep, or something new with NPC's to keep player interest up. One of the easiest ways to make players want to pursue that content is new, better, flashier gear. If you update the crafting system to current standards, you bump up the power level in the game (which many people on the forums claims is a little whacked anyhow), AND you create a situation where next patch, we'll see Mk XIII and Mk IV super items because the devs want to get everyone excited about the new stuff.
And now we're back to "I don't like gear based MMO progression".

In addition, allowing crafting to reach the same ceiling as other gear sources in no way makes that ceiling any higher. If I bounce a ball 25 feet high, and then bounce another ball the exact same height, the first ball doesn't magically bounce higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post

Conversely, if you make crafting about items that aren't widely available from other segments of the game, it gives the devs a reason to keep updating crafting every patch, which keeps guys like yourself happy (or well, happier) in the long run. Crafting couldeven become about fun things at that point, and no one would mind because there is ALWAYS a market for fun.
I guess you missed the part where I advocated for items that were crafting exclusive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
And finally... just a consideration for you... No one is going to have money or resources to grab your crafted items until they finish getting the rep items they want because they're sinking a sizable chunk of their resources into the daily rep grinds. If you work WITH this consideration, you realize that prices for everything have a pretty low critical mass-which is good for somethings and REALLY BAD for expensive crafting. I grind out my MACO set, why am I going to want to Aegis? Seriously, *why*? I also consider it "dumb" that the supreme crafted items compete with the Rep items-that's just a lose/lose situation.
Following that logic, why have Omega, Adapted Maco or Borg sets since we have a Maco set? You want everyone wearing the same armor, carrying the same rifle, flying the shame ship equipped with the exact same weapons, shields and engines?

Because reducing variety is exactly what leads to that sort of thing. Increasing viable options leads to people having more and more things to mix and match, and create interesting, workable and fun combinations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
Do you get that? Are we at least one the same page now?
I understand that you're looking for something in a crafting system that the vast majority of MMO players wouldn't touch with a twenty foot pole and a hazmat suit.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 54
# 16
03-22-2013, 11:58 AM
Ehh, you know what, it's not worth it. I can see that proposing to gut the system is not wildly popular because of people's preconceived notions. You want your misery? Sorry I waded in.

Last edited by tau41; 03-22-2013 at 12:03 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 275
# 17 o.o
03-22-2013, 11:59 AM
No wonder the Devs don't read this stuff...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,217
# 18
03-22-2013, 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by akurie666 View Post
No wonder the Devs don't read this stuff...
I honestly regret having contributed to the thread.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 19
03-22-2013, 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tau41 View Post
Ehh, you know what, it's not worth it. I can see that proposing to gut the system is not wildly popular because of people's preconceived notions. You want your misery? Sorry I waded in.
Again, its your tone and your complete dismissal of any opinion other than your own that's the problem here.

You start a forum thread and then act the fool to anyone who doesn't agree with you? That's not exactly a great way to encourage discussion and try to find commonly acceptable solutions.

But if it makes you feel better to chalk it all up to us just not grasping the core crafting problems, you go right ahead and do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffel82 View Post
I honestly regret having contributed to the thread.
Me too.

Last edited by boglejam73; 03-22-2013 at 12:11 PM. Reason: added a quote...
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 275
# 20 o.o
03-22-2013, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffel82 View Post
I honestly regret having contributed to the thread.
Is it wrong to craft? Are we bad people?
Reply

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