Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,081
# 41
03-22-2013, 12:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
your analogies completely fail. there is no opportunity to apply a personal touch like there would be fireing a gun or mixing chemicals. there are 500 layers of technology between the person pressing the button and the effect, be it an energy beam or a repulsing tractor beam. there is a complete reliance on the vast technology to do everything on its own, other then activate itself. the skill points arent even skill points, its really how reenforced particular systems are on your ship, how big your particle generator is or what ever.
Um, actually - it's a mix - in regards to the skill points. It's a combination of what the character knows and equipment that boosts the overall effectiveness of that skill.

You need 84 in Particle Generators for a Sci to train FBP3. That's 84 PrtG skill - it's not a case of having 3x PrtG Mk XII consoles that give you 90 pts. You need the skill to be able to train.

One can simply look at a mouse to see an example of this. Compare an old two button wheel mouse to a 15+ button laser mouse...the end result is the combination of the person's skill with the mouse and the technology they're using.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
theres no way to explain how tac buffs can magically make weapons deal an extra 50% to twice their damage, just as theres no way to explain how they effect things that arent a beam, cannon or torpedo. trying to draw some line or distinction is a laughable cause.
I don't know, cause you know...there's this thing where Tac Skills are in Red - Tac BOFFs are Red - if you unhide/show the BOFF Bar - Tac Abilities are surrounded by Red...looking at the Tac Skills you see Weapons Training, Energy Weapons, Projectile Weapons, EW Specialization, PW Specialization... one might put A & B together (as Cryptic has partially) that Tac Abilities would affect Weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
you know what the difference between the button that fires weapon and the button that fires a tractor beam? nothing, other then its label or color. thanks to the magic of video games, a damage multiplier is applied to each, by the captain who's only role is to apply the most damage.
To apply the most damage. Yes. A Tac in an Escort should do the most damage in the game. That doesn't mean that a Tac in a Sci should do more damage than a Sci in a Sci with Sci abilities.. The Tac in the Escort should do more damage than the Sci in the Sci. Because the Tac's role is to do the most damage in the game. That doesn't mean the most damage with everything in the game. Just the most damage. Nobody's questioning that. Okay, well there are folks out there that question that. Heck, even I've argued for overall DPS equality over an extended period of time - but that's only from a Tac in an Escort's need to withdraw or receive support to stay in the fight - there's no arguing that the Tac's short term DPS should be the highest in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
tacs make damage harderest, deal with it. get over your sci inferiority complex.
Again, look at praxi's signature. Makes my thoughts on Sci quite clear. They're the only folks that concern me in the game. Tacs don't bother me. I bet the other Eng will get bored before me. It's the Sci that ruins my day.

I'm the guy posting about SNB not clearing everything. Posting about how spammable HE ruins plasma as a damage form. Heck, posting that PH, HE, TSS should be Eng abilities - ST shouldn't have a shield heal - pointing to how Shield Healing is obviously an Eng thing.

I'm the guy asking for pseudo to-hit rolls on Sci abilities because it's mind boggling that somebody with a 30-40% to-hit against me with any of their weapons has a 100% to-hit with physical Sci abilities like SNB, Tractor Beam, Tachyon Beam.

I'm the guy asking about pseudo to-hit rolls on Sci abilities based on resist because the following example actually exists in the game:

Tom has 9 in Sensors, 4x +30 Sensors, other Sensors/Sci buffing gear, 125 Aux.
Rick has 0 in Sensors, no Sensors/Sci buffing gear, 25 Aux.
Harry has 0 in CMS, no CMS/Sci buffing gear, 25 Aux.

Harry's chance to use his Jam Sensors I against Tom and Rick is the same. 100%. Like WTF?

Heck, I even asked recently about the "Magic" of all the increased CrtH and how it's affecting various things.

That battle to try to bring some logic to Science can't happen while they've been nerfed elsewhere because of a Tac's ability to boost Sci abilities better than a Sci can.

Yes, Geko's got STO as Escorts Online - the devs are all Sisko/Defiant/DS9 fanbois.

There are Tacs whining that they're too squishy. There are Tacs whining that they're not killing things fast enough - there's too much healing.

It's not all Tacs, but by God - there are just so many Tacs out there acting like spoiled little brats...it's hard not to side with just about anything anybody says against them just to stick it to them.

But that's not what this is about it. It's not about nerfing Tacs into oblivion so that Sci do the most damage. It's about Cryptic going through the trouble to have separated things...and...then basically throwing that separation away all but from the start.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,081
# 42
03-22-2013, 01:05 AM
As far as stripping/dropping shields...

Elite Fleet Disruptors (both a HDR and a SDR debuff)
Tet Glider
Leech

I fought two guys in Krenns using that...did far more shields go poof than a Sci with CPB/Tach Beam/Tach Mines. You stay out of range of the Sci, you easily break the arc on Tac Beam, you just destroy the mines.

Course, Feds can't do that - with most folks fighting FvF - because they hate the KDF drain stuff, they may not even realize what they can do with shield destruction. Course, you could work that into it as well, eh?

Elite Fleet Disruptors
Tet Glider
Leech
Siphon Drones
Aceton Assimilators
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba

Last edited by virusdancer; 03-22-2013 at 01:15 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 43
03-22-2013, 03:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
unless your runing a dot or trans build, expect to deal next to no damage as a sci/sci. but thats fine, you should be seting up kills, thats your job, the damage you cause will neveer be enough to make a difference, so dont bother trying to deal any. control instead

VM- ruination of escorts or anything that doesnt have ET

PSW- puts a stop to TBs, TBR, tach beam, ES, EWP, and any other skill that has a duration like that

GW- an aoe hold that can hold pretty well with proper specing, the doff seems to work great too.

TBR- the push is what maters with a sci. get someone away from a healer and have the escorts pounce on them

you also got SNB and scan, the 2 greatest kill setup skills in the game. your escort friends take it from here.



if tac skills stopped buffing skills that deal energy or kinetic damage, there would never be a reason for a tac to fly a sci, that synergy would not exist. wile it can be entertaining to have damage buffed GW, PSW, FBP, and TBR, your not going to destroy anyone like you will in an escort, and your a sci ship on the field without an SNB and scan and sci fleet and the aoe resist thing.

sci captains seem to take it real personal when tac captains can deal more damage with THEIR skills. forgetting that its in no way a sci captains job to contribute to team success by dealing damage. any that a sci captain deals is just gravy.
the problem is that there are too many skills that give immunity to those skills, vm is useless now with human boffs as well as psw, yeah, tacticals boosting kinetic its ok for me, but not fdp

and about cpb, tachyon beams, they really suck, i mean, really, with flow caps maxed, using a lvl 3 cpb boosted by 4 flow caps consoles, i cant reach 5k shield strip, that, plus, power insulators of the enemy or power insulators consoles, makes a 5k skill to go down to 1k or 1.5k, that's nothing even for a boff, dual heavy cannons can do that with 1 hit, i wonder how it would go with tachyon beam beeing a 45arc skill, or a cpb 1/tb 1, i just cant find a use to them... they are just too weak

repulsors are ok, the dmg is poor but the mine clearing is fine
energy syphon is the best one i can find for pvp, but that will require aux maxed to do something, again, power insulators reduce its drain to half
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude

Last edited by borgresearcher; 03-22-2013 at 03:11 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 44
03-22-2013, 03:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
your analogies completely fail. there is no opportunity to apply a personal touch like there would be fireing a gun or mixing chemicals. there are 500 layers of technology between the person pressing the button and the effect, be it an energy beam or a repulsing tractor beam. there is a complete reliance on the vast technology to do everything on its own, other then activate itself. the skill points arent even skill points, its really how reenforced particular systems are on your ship, how big your particle generator is or what ever.

theres no way to explain how tac buffs can magically make weapons deal an extra 50% to twice their damage, just as theres no way to explain how they effect things that arent a beam, cannon or torpedo. trying to draw some line or distinction is a laughable cause.

you know what the difference between the button that fires weapon and the button that fires a tractor beam? nothing, other then its label or color. thanks to the magic of video games, a damage multiplier is applied to each, by the captain who's only role is to apply the most damage.

tacs make damage harderest, deal with it. get over your sci inferiority complex.
get over your tactical superiority then ddks, is there a way to explain how tac buffs can magically boost the INCOMING DAMAGE ? making fbp better ?
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,081
# 45
03-22-2013, 03:25 AM
Meh, there's too much passive aggressive aggro and outright aggro in this thread.

It's one of those things where there are really more than two sides to the discussion, multiple sides to the two sides if you will - and - well, there's a tendency for things to get applied to members of the other side that aren't particularly members of that particular subgroup on the other side. Kind of like most discussions, it's not so black and white - and - mud meant for Tom gets slung at Jerry even though Jerry doesn't agree with Tom on certain things...etc, etc, etc.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 46
03-22-2013, 03:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Meh, there's too much passive aggressive aggro and outright aggro in this thread.

It's one of those things where there are really more than two sides to the discussion, multiple sides to the two sides if you will - and - well, there's a tendency for things to get applied to members of the other side that aren't particularly members of that particular subgroup on the other side. Kind of like most discussions, it's not so black and white - and - mud meant for Tom gets slung at Jerry even though Jerry doesn't agree with Tom on certain things...etc, etc, etc.
tom's gotta admit jerry is better, because jerry is the favourit in the cartoon, just the way tacs are in sto.

shield stripping sucks, tacs can do better without having to go 125 aux, spending points in flow caps, just get some tach mines or something and boost their mechanical devices by implementing tac's mind power.

i can't live with this, really, how can someone be a sci and be fine with this ? apo is just immune to everything, while we get our skills nerfed, viral matrix and psw sucks now with human boffs, leaving me with fbp that can be boosted better by tacs, and energy syphon that is reduced to half by power insulators and can't disable a thing, that, again, tacticals can do better if they get a carrier with syphon drones
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,081
# 47
03-22-2013, 04:41 AM
Neither of my Sci are well-built out - they're my #3 and #5 toons (so they're down on the food chain in regard to the love/though/etc they've received).

Sci in a Mirror DSSV

Traits - Accurate, Elusive, Astrophysicist, Warp Theorist

Passives (only T2 in each)
New Rom - Precision
Omega - Omega Weapon Training

TT1, APD1
EPtS1, AtS1
EPtA1

JS1, HE2, TB3, GW3
PH1, TSS2, SS2


DOFFs - SDO(BFI), TBO(TB), DO(Deflector), GS(GW), BIO(SS)

Deflector - Jem'Hadar Mk XI
Engine - Breen Mk XI
Shields - Breen Mk XI

Weapons
Fore - 2x Phased Polaron Beam Array Mk XI [Acc]x2, Breen Cluster Torp
Aft - 2x Phased Polaron Beam Array Mk XI [Acc]x2, Breen Cluster Torp

Consoles
Tac - GPG, EPM
Eng - 2x RCS Mk XI, Neut Mk XI
Sci - 4x Sensor Probes Mk XII

Devices - SFM, Aux Batt, Eng Batt

Sci in a Hegh'ta BoP

Traits - Accurate, Elusive, Astrophysicist, Warp Theorist

Passives (not even T1)
New Rom - none
Omega - none

PH1, TSS2, GW1, PSW3
HE1, TB2, VM1
JS1, ST2

EPtS1, AtS1

DOFFs - SE(VM Spread), SE(VM Add), 2xPSS(Pho Rec), GS(GW Add)

Deflector - Breen Mk XI
Engine - Breen Mk XI
Shield - Breen Mk XI

Weapons
Fore - Trans Torp Mk XII [Acc]x2[Dmg], Rapid Trans Torp Mk XI, Hargh'peng Torp Mk XI, Breen Cluster Torp
Aft - Tractor Mines, Breen Cluster Torp

Consoles
Tac - 3x Trans Compressor Mk XI
Eng - Nadeon, RCS Mk XI, Neut Mk XI
Sci - 3x Grav Gen Mk XI

Devices - SFM, Eng Batt

Neither of them are in the particular ship that I wish they were nor do they sport the gear/passives/etc that I wish they had. However, I've found them to be pretty effective at what I'm trying to do with both of them already and I look forward to their increased effectiveness should I give them the attention/investment.

The MDSSV quickly becomes a primary target when the KDF realizes he can see them. The Hegh'ta gets cursed at for being a sci spammer while tank busting.

They're both a trip to play.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,918
# 48
03-22-2013, 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
But that's not what this is about it. It's not about nerfing Tacs into oblivion so that Sci do the most damage. It's about Cryptic going through the trouble to have separated things...and...then basically throwing that separation away all but from the start.
what are the advantages of destroying the tac sci niche? i cant think of 1. those sci skills? sci captains arent going to take over for tacs dealing all that damage with them, like you said. no one will deal that damage in them anymore. tac sci would be the most useless captain and ship combination, at least eng escort can make it easier for an eng to level, theres would be absolutely no synergy putting your tac in a sci.

why would the game be better off arbitrarily separated on a line of your choosing with no one dealing that level of damage with sci skills, and another ship/captain combo being made completely useless? because you have convinced your self it makes more sense for tac skills to magically buff weapons but not sci skills? why do you take this position, because you hate seeing tac captains dealing more damage with YOUR skills? a tac in a sci ship is not breaking the game, not dealing weapon spike, not debuffing worth a damn, hes the very definition of a selfish kirk ship.


everything but shield strips and TR works fine on sci ships if you arent a tard and load up on field gens instead of particle gens, flow caps, graviton gens or countermeasure consoles. the human doffs have not been a wonder cure for VM, its still extreamly effective, and even if its cleared by ET that doesn't stop the doff. useing a PSW that deals no damage to anyone but breaks ES just helped your team more then another tac shooting at a person under ES but has no way to clear it off of them. the most important things a sci can do involve dealing no damage.

im so tired of scis complaining about tacs and completely missing the point of their own existence. a sci is basically impossible for a tac in a traditional COM and LTC tac escort to deal with as it is, it can be juggled like a ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
There are Tacs whining that they're too squishy. There are Tacs whining that they're not killing things fast enough - there's too much healing.

It's not all Tacs, but by God - there are just so many Tacs out there acting like spoiled little brats...it's hard not to side with just about anything anybody says against them just to stick it to them.
i haven't even seen pve'ers complain about escort squishyness for over a year, were are you seeing that? no one is even complaining about their damage ether, they still have the spike, its more then ever become the only weapon damage that kills. there hasn't been a single bratty tac for as long as i can remember. the only ones whining are sci captains. even eng captains are stoically trying to convince them selfs and others that they arent completely marginalized.

there is no tacs complaining about their lot in life at all. they are on defense because everyone else with their limited perspective think they are the problem. its actually that their spike is consistently balanced with the healing, and is functioning fairly well. its the other aspects like cruiser damage, some of the sci skills, regular tanking vs speed tanking, that have all been marginalized by 1 thing or the other. tacs are the only thing they have gotten right, nerfing some fundamental aspect of them now would prevent death, there are slim enough margins as it is. go ahead and nef that damnable bug ship though.

so many other things need buffing, id love to have my fed tac cruiser back. id love to see shield striping sci/sci torp boats be a thing again. id love to see even eng cruiser pressure force healing or drive away escorts again. none of that works anymore since ether F2P, season 6, or season 7.
______________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
I just wanted to say, I've never seen a more disturbing avatar
the pvp build and help thread
gateway links(should actually work now) -->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,530
# 49
03-22-2013, 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
what are the advantages of destroying the tac sci niche? i cant think of 1. those sci skills? sci captains arent going to take over for tacs dealing all that damage with them, like you said. no one will deal that damage in them anymore. tac sci would be the most useless captain and ship combination, at least eng escort can make it easier for an eng to level, theres would be absolutely no synergy putting your tac in a sci.

[...]

so many other things need buffing, id love to have my fed tac cruiser back. id love to see shield striping sci/sci torp boats be a thing again. id love to see even eng cruiser pressure force healing or drive away escorts again. none of that works anymore since ether F2P, season 6, or season 7.
but thats the point, compare a tac.sci with an eng/sci. One has a niche, the other doesn't..... We need synergy for the eng class badly. Pressure damage is one thing, but even if it is a sci ship as healer, we need a meaningful that an eng can do in that position.
Joined 06.10
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PvP 2012-2013
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,081
# 50
03-22-2013, 01:23 PM
SNB.

In PvP, without it - some matches would never end - nobody would get a kill.

In PvE, without it - yeah...who would notice if it was missing? NPCs don't buff up like Players.

I believe that's where they're (the complaining Sci folk) are coming from.

In PvP, we don't want to lose the SNB. So you're going to want that Sci/Sci. In PvE, you don't want that. If you're bringing a Sci Vessel along for some control/etc - you want a Tac in it.

That Tac will not only do more damage with the actual weapons of the ship, they'll also do more damage with the Sci abilities. They'll bring FoMM which the NPCs aren't spamming TT and clearing. Tac Init will refresh their few Tac abilities faster - giving them that lil' extra edge as well. They'll bring another copy of Tac Fleet to run in the rotation to maximize the group's damage through the encounter. Heck, they take some hull damage and pop GDF - even more damage.

So why might the Sci/Sci out there complain?

The thing is, what they're asking for wouldn't result in them doing more damage as a Sci/Sci than a Tac/Sci could do.

If the Sci abilities were buffed for damage because they could no longer be affected by Tac abilities...then anybody, Tac/Eng/Sci would be doing the same damage with those abilities. Only the Tac could also boost the weapon damage coming from that Sci Vessel. The Tac would still do the most damage in it. The Tac would still bring more in the Sci than the Sci - since SNB would still be meh.

What it would change though - is the amount of damage the Sci did bring in that Sci. They might get fewer tells complaining that they're there.

It's kind of easy to see where they grumble about certain things like that.

Tac - brings additional damage to whatever ship they're in - it's not going to be the maximum DPS they could do - but they bring additional damage than what an Eng or Sci could bring to those ships.

Tac in a Cruiser? They boost the damage while being able to toss the heals.
Tac in a Sci? They boost the damage while being able to sling the control.

Even an Eng has it better off than the Sci in many cases, as funny as that may be.

Eng in an Escort? They boost their own survivability as well as the survivability of the rest of the team. (WTF? If you don't have to toss the heal to the Eng in the Escort, you can toss that heal to the Tac in the Escort. If you had two Tac Escorts and one heal available..)
Eng in a Sci? Just like an Eng in an Escort.

True, neither the Tac nor Eng can drop out SNB...that's PvP vs. PvE though.

Sci in an Escort? That can be pretty nifty - not as much damage, loss of the control stuff, but pretty easy to lineup that SNB.
Sci in a Cruiser? Hrmm, yeah - try to line up that SNB without a Jumper.

It's pretty easy to see where they're coming from on certain things. It's also pretty easy to see how some just don't know what they can actually do - however, there's no getting around that in PvE the Tac is going to be better. Heck, with the way they're doing various ships - there are interesting things you can do with a Tac in a Sci even in PvP (as long as you've got your SNBs somewhere).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i haven't even seen pve'ers complain about escort squishyness for over a year, were are you seeing that?
I can't even begin to describe just how pissed off that 4 hour Geko interview made me. I mean, I just can't even begin...
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
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