Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 41
03-22-2013, 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by haravikk View Post
[*]Tactical Team shouldn't be the go-to power for survival; escorts should be forced to turn to survive, with tactical team's distribution effect instead moving to a Lt. Commander or Commander engineering ability, but maybe give everyone access to some shield auto-distribution as an effect of shield distribution duty officers. This leaves Tactical Team to become a pure offence/repel boarders combo ability.[/list]
If you think about uptime you'd realize that if escorts really had to turn and do strafing runs their spike and innate DPS would have to 4 or 5 times what it is now, maybe even more. That just leads to an arms race between cruisers and needing ever higher defenses to survive such attacks and NPCs needing higher damaging powers to get thru those defenses... it becomes a scaling nightmare.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 47
# 42
03-23-2013, 03:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
If you think about uptime you'd realize that if escorts really had to turn and do strafing runs their spike and innate DPS would have to 4 or 5 times what it is now, maybe even more. That just leads to an arms race between cruisers and needing ever higher defenses to survive such attacks and NPCs needing higher damaging powers to get thru those defenses... it becomes a scaling nightmare.
if you have a cruser to hold aggro, they wouldnt worry about turning, in ideal only dmg they gonna take will be from aoe atacks, and also that gonna make them think about aggro and ways to prevent taking it., also as many ppl already siad, its pure dps race right now, if escorts are to worry about dying, it will change in some way, it wont be just dps that matters, as for survival of crusers, i think they are just fine, may be ajust NPCS with a bit higher sustained dmg, and remove or greatly reduce their spike dmg, at best that dmg should be enough to one shoot kill you, but avoidable, like moving out of area, clearing buff/debuff in some short interval, or using some univerasl ability.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 47
# 43
03-23-2013, 04:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
We're a lot closer to the second case since the first would require a total overhaul of the campaigns and AI, while the second is basically just numerical tweaks to existing systems.
if we want to be made right, just numerical tweaks wont work, 95% of engineriing consoles are useless for example, to be honest is nearly same with sci ones. as someone said crew system is .. it isnt even broken, it should be remade too. i never ever paid attention or relayed on my crew on my cruser eng.

also they might have good formula to calculate difference between lower and higher arc weapons ... but with current high end weapons, diffrence become a bit too big. it was fine before we got all that purple mk12 weapons, fleet weapons and such, but that was like 2 yars ago.

formula is something like that if i remember correct
(MK0 Base Damage*(360-firing arc)/360) * (1 + (Weapon Skill / 100) + (Mark * 0.1))*(weapon power level/50)

and as you can see with all this multiplications with advancing of weapons, dmg gap becomes larger and larger. not to mention changes they made to weapon drains. wich favors uses of less energy weapons. crusers are way too slow to use anything but 8 beams.
i dont say its not possible, but the lack of ability to equip cannons. nearly same is situation with sci ships after all nerfs to sci abilities past year.

all in all in my opinion, entire content, or ship/boff powers systems should be remade to balance the game and bring all ships to bear.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 72
# 44
03-23-2013, 04:29 AM
I am still reading but i do want to say that while you may want it to be a trinity based mmo, the sto storyline does not support that idea. 9 out of 10 encounters where championed by a single ship and when they did receive help it was not from a team of three balanced roles. Every ship in Startrek was capable of holding its own. Everyship is a floating city. Its alot more about style and desire to play together than it is about the trinity system. There are differences and they probably need to be more clearly defined but you will never see a clear role devision in STO. Not in space combat at least.
I thought I took the Blue Pill.......
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 47
# 45
03-23-2013, 05:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trintrektron View Post
I am still reading but i do want to say that while you may want it to be a trinity based mmo, the sto storyline does not support that idea. 9 out of 10 encounters where championed by a single ship and when they did receive help it was not from a team of three balanced roles. Every ship in Startrek was capable of holding its own. Everyship is a floating city. Its alot more about style and desire to play together than it is about the trinity system. There are differences and they probably need to be more clearly defined but you will never see a clear role devision in STO. Not in space combat at least.
in content may be, but in fact ships designs are already with clear role devision more or less.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 46
03-23-2013, 05:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trintrektron View Post
I am still reading but i do want to say that while you may want it to be a trinity based mmo, the sto storyline does not support that idea. 9 out of 10 encounters where championed by a single ship and when they did receive help it was not from a team of three balanced roles. Every ship in Startrek was capable of holding its own. Everyship is a floating city. Its alot more about style and desire to play together than it is about the trinity system. There are differences and they probably need to be more clearly defined but you will never see a clear role devision in STO. Not in space combat at least.
No they were not able to hold their own. Thats just called television.

In every show every trek ship basically got their arses owned by whoever they were facing and they only won by some technobabble solution. Irony: They won through use of engineering and science skills not tactical.

The concept of trinity is a gameplay factor. If you have a game where players don't need the help of others and/or when DPS is the sole performing ability in the game you end up not with a game nor an MMO but with a game with little variety and lots of mind-numbing repetitive tasks. Sound familiar?

I remind you (or inform you if you weren't around pre-F2P) that STO used to have a very well balanced trinity. Each ship had a very specific role and while no ship was absolutely required to win a map, the lack of one said ship was noticeable.

For example, elite STFs type missions (hard) where a team was all escorts had great damage..but it took them a long time to finish off the mission since none of them could keep firing on a target for more than a few seconds or they died. They had to stay fast, moving and heal each other. Escorts were nowhere near as overpowered back then as they are now. Doing same said mission with just sci ships... the targets were debuffed till next friday but the sci ship low dps meant it took them time to bring it down. Cruiser teams fared a little better since they were more versatile..they could tank and they could dps but they couldnt do both at once. It was when you had 2 out of three in the trinity doing their jobs that the team had a noticeable improvement. Three present meant that if all three knew their jobs and did them things went smoothly.

Just the borg alerts back then were challenging..a single borg cube was challenging for a team. The sci ship was vital in disabling and debuffing it...the cruiser held aggro and tanked..the escort was the only one with speed and turn rate and firepower to keep hitting the same shield facing and slam the hull (back then neither players nor npcs had balance shield tac team). Ships were nowhere as fast as today either so the team actually fought and stayed together (within 5km) covering each other.

Why I remember flying my sci ship debuffing, covering my cruiser with aoe resist buffs & tossing them heals every now and then. Today doing that is a freaking waste of time. Cruiser doesn't need me and my sci ship has been nerfed (sci itself) so bad the only role that thing can do is toss damage as best it can. A wasted slot in the team actually, any ship with low dps.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,681
# 47
03-23-2013, 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningstar View Post
in content may be, but in fact ships designs are already with clear role devision more or less.
captain specialization is not at all the same thing as forced grouping with trinity though

an eng captain can use his innates on an escort and a tac captain can use his innates on a cruiser, but forcing them to play "healer" and "hero" roles in a trinity system is something else entirely.

Last edited by ursusmorologus; 03-23-2013 at 05:56 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 72
# 48
03-23-2013, 06:25 AM
edit--Trinity is not canon either. TOS, TNG, VOY, ENT, were all about one ship making its way, not about "where's my healer"

Trinity is wrong for this game. Period. It should be excised, from the space combat anyway.[/quote]



I completely agree with this statement.

Also, in STO role/class division offers variety in the methods we use to defeat the enemy but does not require us to conform to the typical trinity system. There are far to many different combinations of skills, abilities and equipment to be put into such a small box. However a player should be required to play to his strengths in order to excel. Someone said that each role should be able to defeat another using there own strengths, I agree but I would rather see 2 players of different roles that are equal in skill, experience, rank and equipment both in game and out, reach a stalemate. 1 on 1 pvp should be a testing ground only. No 1 role should be dominant.
I thought I took the Blue Pill.......

Last edited by trintrektron; 03-23-2013 at 06:42 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,681
# 49
03-23-2013, 06:59 AM
The problem here, as I see it, is not with the captain specializations so much as it is with ship classes. You add the strike nature of an escort to a tact captain's focus on damage output, and you end up with something that is way better than any other captain type in that ship, and way better than a tact in any other ship type. people see an assault "role" and next thing you know "we can stick engineers in slow heavy cruisers and make them be healers" that do not get to fight because that's the tacscort's "role". Flatten the ship and the roles would become more portable, just as a byproduct of not having combinations that are twice as effective as any other combination. You would still have the advantage of captain specialization, but without the disease where tacscort is the only thing allowed to rambo it up.

You can still have teams with focused roles, but you dont break the whole game getting there.

Also! there is an optional possibility of implementing rock-paper-scissors into this kind of arrangement. It's not required, its just an option that allows for more variety in battle scenarios. sci>tac>eng>sci, with 5-10% inherent advantage in simulator, enough to be overcome with skill

Last edited by ursusmorologus; 03-23-2013 at 07:04 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 50
03-23-2013, 09:32 AM
I think the Trinity would be ok if it would only affect the Player classes, but not ships.

Ships should be more like this

CRUISERS:
Big, powerful all-round ships, strategic oriented playstyle
Boff Slot emphasis:
Tactical 5/10
Engineering 5/10
Science 5/10
Hull 10/10
Maneuverability 5/10


ESCORTS:
Fast and nimble, action oriented playstyle
Boff Slot emphasis:
Tactical 10/10
Engineering 5/10
Science 0/10
Hull 5/10
Maneuverability 10/10


SCIENCE:
Science Magic and crowd control
Boff Slot emphasis:
Tactical 1/10
Engineering 5/10
Science 10/10
Hull 6/10
Maneuverability 8/10


Additionally, each ship class should get adequate Console layout and a additionaly universal Lt BOFF slot.

I think Escorts and Cruisers should be quite similar in Survivability and Firepower, just with other means.
While Escorts should have their primiary firepower to the front, and be able to maneuver very fast (just as the do already), cruisers should be able to do just as much damage. Balanced this way, ships in STO would be much more like ships in the shows. It is not about making any ship type over powered or superior to another, but to make them more equal. But in no way a ship should be put into a role of a passive teethless healer, the Galaxy Class being the most extreme example of this. All Cruisers should get at least +2 turnrate and Starfleet Cruisers should get acess to Dual Cannons.

The most important thing would be to rework some BOFF powers and to add some additional ones, to give every branch a much wider array of possible offensive and defensive powers.
For example, almost all low level Engineering powers share the same cooldown and are either passive or heals.
In my opinion Engineering powers should support Beam weapons much more, like a "Beam Weapon: Rapid Fire" power or something similar.



I think the Trinity just doesn't work with Star Trek ships. As we saw in the shows and Movies, Star Trek ships where generalists, not specialists. Of course some where more focussed on a certain field, like the defiants tactical focus, but still it could do some recon missions. The Galaxy Class is a more extreme example, being able to do almost every type of mission and being highly adaptable to refits and modifications, this ship should have a science/engineering/tactical version by default.

So Star Trek ships are not like BSG or Star Wars ships, they are much more versatile.
Cryptic should make them equal strong in offensive and defensive, just supporting different playstyles.
Character class PLUS BOFF powers PLUS the Ship should define the "role" of the ship, but not the ship alone.
Ships should rather support varius playstyles.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit

Last edited by yreodred; 03-23-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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