Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 41
03-24-2013, 05:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerkorhil View Post
You clearly misunderstand. I know this, it would appear Cryptic do not.
Then perhaps you shall enlighten me as to what I have clearly misunderstood, or what you know?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 200
# 42
03-24-2013, 05:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerkorhil View Post
One of the key problems in the design of this game is this:

Tactical skills should be more dps orientated
Engineering skills should be more tanking orientated
Science skills should be more debuffing orientated

instead we have:

Tactical skills include ALL damage increasing powers in the game and a few defensive ones
Engineering skills include nothing but tanking powers and healing powers
Science skills include nothing but CC abilities and indirect hindering powers

Cryptic dont seem to grasp the difference between "slightly more orientated" and "nothing but".

e.g Ensign Tactical - Beam Overload - Deals 500% beam array damage for 1 shot, -50 drain afterwards.
in addition there should be 2 more skills:
Ensign Engineering - Beam Overload - Deals 350% beam array damage for 1 shot.
Ensign Science - Beam Overload - Deals 250% beam array damage for 1 shot, increases damage taken by the targets shields by 25% for 15 seconds.

All beam overloads would share cooldown.

Ensign Tactical - Torpedo High Yield - As is
Ensign Engineering - Torpedo High Yield - Current High Yield minus 25% damage, half the cooldown
Ensign Science - Torpedo High Yield - Current High Yield minus 25% damage, increase damage taken by the targets hull by 25% for 15 seconds.

All high yields would share cooldown.


There, doesn't that look like a good place to start?
Does sound like a good place to start, but you still have a small problem. How does the Ensign Sci - THY work with torps like photons, quantums and trico's?

And I think you might get the same problem as with the teams abilities. But this would give a much more flexible setup without overlapping timeouts.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,186
# 43
03-24-2013, 05:46 AM
Forgive me for not reading through the thread (or don't), but these threads are a dime a dozen - and with it being Spring, I think they're even on sale two dozen for nine cents with a five cent mail-in-rebate.

So I'll just skip to the point, imho (not really humble, but some people take things better with that lie - ooops, I guess I told), of what the issue is and how it is only going to get worse as time goes on.

Let's use extreme examples, k? Extreme examples work best (worst, best, it's all the same when discussing something that's going to be ignored anyway) in cases like this.

Tac Escort w/ DHCs
Eng Cruiser w/ Beams

Okay, so Cryptic decide it was time for a little mudflation (many times, mind you - oh so many times - though, the content never harder - funny, eh? that's a separate topic, mind you - so let's carry on)...but they wanted balanced mudflation, am I right?

Let's add some Offense! Okay, cool! Oh, we need to add some Defense to balance that! Yeah, baby - that's right! Cool, so we'll add Offense and Defense!

/cough

So let's add some Offense and Defense to our:

Tac Escort w/ DHCs
Eng Cruiser w/ Beams

Who benefits the most from the added Offense?

Tac Escort w/ DHCs

C'mon, that's obvious! Like totally duh...duh.

So obviously that should mean that the...

Eng Cruiser w/ Beams

...would benefit the most from the added Defense, right?

WRONG!
WRONG!
WRONG!
WRONG!
WRONG!


Think putting that in bold red helped it stand out? Cause it's WRONG!

Tac Escort w/ DHCs benefits the most from the added Defense.

It's offsetting the lack of Defense (not the Defense stat, talking about overall Defense here) that they're supposed to have for the increased Offense they have.

The Offensive increase to the Tac Escort w/ DHCs is greater than the Defensive increase the Eng Cruiser w/ Beams received. The Defensive increase the Tac Escort w/ DHCs received is greater than the Offensive increase the Eng Cruiser w/ Beams got.

So Cryptic adds a "balanced" Offense/Defense bit with each bit of mudflation. With each bit, the disparity grows between the two extremes. They've done several...several...many - man oh man, look at that gap now, eh?

They're going to be adding more, you know it - I mean, c'mon - you know it, right?

So in the end, it's not really about nerfing Tacs - nerfing Escorts - nerfing DHCs... it's a case of looking at all the additional stuff that's been added (and will continue to be added) interacts with them.

"BUT OMFG WAIT!" a Tac screams, "THAT IS NERFING ME!"

Um, no - it's not. Nerfing you would be doing something to the Captain abilities, the Escorts, or the DHCs. This is addressing the manner in which something else is applied to you while you're playing your Tac in an Escort with DHCs.

IMHO (/cough), you said not to nerf Tacs - Escorts - DHCs. I'm not suggesting that they do.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 337
# 44
03-24-2013, 06:23 AM
Nerfing all escorts in game will make many players unhappy so I say don't do that.In this moment a good built wells can kill an escort so thing's are not so imbalanced ,I guess.

My proposition is : leave things how they are now, bring new faction and after the release bug's are fixed then we can have this discussion again.
Originally Posted by zipagat :
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,186
# 45
03-24-2013, 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dova25 View Post
My proposition is : leave things how they are now, bring new faction and after the release bug's are fixed then we can have this discussion again.
How about they address the oodles and oodles of current bugs before adding oodles and oodles of new bugs?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 19
# 46
03-24-2013, 07:56 AM
For everyone who didnt realize over the last 3 years: there is no rock/paper/scissor - system or any "trinity" in this game. all that remains are escorts and scraps.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 47
03-24-2013, 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
I'l take the opportunity to re-iterate this. In PvP, this is how you kill escorts.
Yes, and surprisingly effective against the Borg Tactical Cubes and tanking 3 Spheres.

Actually it works better in PvE - NPC are too stupid to counter the subsystem targeting....

The only time I see optionals in Infected Elite going belly-up is when a cruiser is relying on FAW and Plasma torps without thinking through the effects.

Last edited by drkfrontiers; 03-24-2013 at 08:04 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 48
03-24-2013, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
I blow up sufficient JHAS, Fleet Defiants in my cruiser to know they are not invincible. Its a case of playing at their weakness.

I will give you a hint.

Counter their Speed & maneuverability. - slow them down. Target Engines instead of FAW. Chrotonic Mines and Torps. Polaron weapons work great. Chrotonic Torps are great if you can afford a Lt.Cmdr Torp Spread III.

Most cruiser captains I see still play to the idea that FAW is the only important offensive skill. Its the last one I go for, for the above reason. Any ship that looses its ability for speed and maneuver is fighting on it's back leg and defensively.
Oh the ignorance... Attack Omega hold immunity means tractors dont work. Power insulator skill overocomes drain abilities..if you didn't know one point in power insulator/dampeners nullifies 7 points in graviton/flow capacitor.

chroniton and weapon procs must first hit the ship. Escorts have bonus to defense and again, attack omega grants a massive defense AND speed boost.

dual omega 1 is standard in escorts. its a permanent immunity to any form of snare and hold.

Quote:
Counter DPS - 2x sub-system targeting doffs - Target Weapons. They become limp biscuits. Your durability will wear them down, either till they run or just to stubborn to admit they are already dead.

If you happen to come across a premade, you had better figure out who their heavy hitter is, and apply the above to them constantly and still remember your role is to support your team.
For about 3 seconds. You do realize subsystem repair skill also counters decompiler skill at a 1:7 ratio yes? No? Now you do. Again, the 'you must hit it to debuff it' problem exists.

Finally, what happens to PVE? Ah right.. thats where it is ok for escorts to have no need for the other classes since they can tank, kill and perform any job ten times faster.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 49
03-24-2013, 09:47 AM
Actually he is correct.
In PvP the variuos movement debuffs availible will even hold/slow/stop an escort cycle ApO though it takes timing to hit the open window of 10-15 seconds that it will work in.
Standard BOff timer/cool down interupting abilities will work well against escorts, especially SNB and VM.
He is also correct about the Target Weapons attacks, both as the Tac abilities and other lesser weapon debuffs ingame. Take away an escorts weapon power is a very easy way to render them harmless for a time.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,087
# 50
03-24-2013, 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Let's add some Offense! Okay, cool! Oh, we need to add some Defense to balance that! Yeah, baby - that's right! Cool, so we'll add Offense and Defense!
When they add offense they add it by a %. Or *

When they add defense they add it by a flat number. Or +

Hence those who have the greatest offensive starting point gain the most from added offense and those who have the lowest defensive starting point gain the most from added defense.

Messed up.
STO's F2P is basically an inferior experience for the masses at no cost being subsidized by a handful of whales seeking whatever it is that motivates them to spend hundreds if not thousands on a game.
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