Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,464
# 91
03-25-2013, 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeybacon90 View Post
It would not surprise me if his definition of learning to play is to pop APA and then sit on the spacebar. If people who have spent months attempting to get viable builds have found that these ships are just too uncompetitive, I would believe them over some one-liner wally.
That tends to be along the lines of the responses, eh? Folks post thread after thread, going into various details - providing examples - offering comparisons, etc, etc, etc.

The typical replies are:

"I fly other stuff. It's fine."
"It's fine. L2P."

To an extent, those replies are kind of amusing...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 92
03-25-2013, 08:29 AM
Just thought I'd share my experiences. I have an engineer, science and tactical captain fed side and have used cruisers and escorts for engineer, science ships and escorts for the science and escorts for the tactical. I mainly do PvE but have dabbled in a slight bit of PvP on my sci and tactical.

For PvP I've enjoyed the power a tactical has in terms of doing attack runs but found out pretty quickly I need to hit and run and not get caught near (5km) more than 2 enemy ships or I will most likely die if they're good. As a sci in a sci ship, oh wow that was fun but I hear insulators have severely crippled drains and I once faced a bug with 9 in insulators, dampners and sensors and could do nothing to him even with 180 in flow caps or switching to 150+ in grav gens.

As for PvP. I mostly do STF for the dilithium and I've found that my tactical in an escort does them the quickest as it kills the fastest, it can survive about 30s at 0km (for max damage) to a gate but I have to run after that or I will die even with the shield and hull heals and resists and defence.
My engineer completes faster and can also carry a team in an escort (HEC as I like it to be more class focused) however since the assimilated set and a few other things help to mitigate weapon power drain I have started flying a DKora which can tank most things and still output 5.7k dps according to ACT and should go to 6k when I'm finished getting the gear.
My science performs better in the mobius or advanced escort packing a GW1. It's useful in a vesta or other sci ships when it can use GW3 and other power drains but it can't compete to using the escorts.

Why is this? It's because the entire mission revolves around destroying X number of enemies in Y time for the optional, though I consider failing the optional as failing the mission. If I had 5 exact duplicates of my cruisers or sci ships then the team would do it with optional though the science would be the slowest.

Fleet missions: Now there's a bit more variety here as you can fail for different reasons like letting things get destroyed and with so many enemies spawning sometimes having crowd control helps. My tactical and the escorts perform generally better here as they can melt through most enemies quicker than they can get to the objective to destroy it. However the sci and science ships will shine a bit better here as CC, scramble sensors and other skills will keep the enemy occupied. My cruiser performs less well here because even with 6 in threat control and 2 mk XII +threat consoles things ignore it but can keep the objective alive so it has its own little niche too.

Starbase 24 and gorn minefield: Escorts win hands down as they can rip apart the higher value objectives quicker. Yes CC is nice to have and tanking 100 ships is great but it won't earn you as many points as killing 10 negh'vars or other ships.

Now the way I see it in PvE, which is what most people play, there's no content that requires anything more than kill these dudes fast or that cannot be won by kill these dudes faster. What needs to happen is that we need more content that requires something other than killing things fast or faster. Hive onslaught for STFs was a step in the right direction, not ferpect but a step. Star base blockade is a great example of a balanced mission however people are too stupid to even complete it well. Yes I do mean that. I see many pugs not use tactical team on freighters, all club together on one, not heal it, some even go after enemies nowhere near the freighter.

Anyway to sum up,
Content needs to be more balanced before classes get balanced.
Tacticals complete all content faster.
Escorts with a science or engineer slant complete all content faster.
This is all when you max out the ship/captain for said content.
Exceptions star base blockade and maybe Hive onslaught.

Last edited by bpharma; 03-25-2013 at 08:44 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
# 93
03-25-2013, 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrimcorsair View Post
So take the one Captain in STO whose capabilities, whose Captain powers, aren't particularly over or under performing and nerf them.

Cool.

You know what happens next? They're still ideal for for PvE. Tac/Escort would still be tough enough to do the content, it'd still be the optimal setup for speed running anything other than Hive and No Win, it'd still be the most efficient setup for leveling up.

Why?

With two, maybe three, notable exceptions, the mob and encounter design of STO does not contain sufficient complexity to match the capabilities of players outside of the current binary state of "not hurting you meaningfully or you are dead." Until it grows and evolves (hopefully the revamped Crystalline Entity marks the first step in this direction) into something more fluid in line with capabilities of players than the current "kill everything as fast you can and try not to be instagibbed," killing everything as fast as possible will remain the optimal way to play PvE content.

PvP is a whole different ballgame, and if you think "Hi, I'm a Tac in a Bug, I'm going to win now" accurately sums it up, you are sorely mistaken, though it seemed the main thrust of your point was aimed at the PvE performance of the Tac/Escort combo.
very well said 95% of players crying have never done any real pvp, they play pve and think have a killer set up then do some pvp and get there ass handed too them, a pvp set up is far different to a pve set up
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,464
# 94
03-25-2013, 08:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by retrosrages View Post
very well said 95% of players crying have never done any real pvp, they play pve and think have a killer set up then do some pvp and get there ass handed too them, a pvp set up is far different to a pve set up
There's no mention of PvP in the OP's post.
The thread is not in the PvP section of the forums.

...just saying.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 95
03-25-2013, 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by retrosrages View Post
very well said 95% of players crying have never done any real pvp, they play pve and think have a killer set up then do some pvp and get there ass handed too them, a pvp set up is far different to a pve set up
Agreed but it also works the other way, a PvP set up is still useful PvE but can be made to be better for PvE =)

Also I think a lot of the escort pilots for PvP don't invest in skill resists too.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 92
# 96
03-25-2013, 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by retrosrages View Post
very well said 95% of players crying have never done any real pvp, they play pve and think have a killer set up then do some pvp and get there ass handed too them, a pvp set up is far different to a pve set up
You know, the arrogance of some players are astounding. Pretty much everyone and their mum knows that PvP set ups are different from PvE. That is basically the same in EVERY mmo where there is PvE and PvP content, with the exception of EvE. For example, in WoW you need resilience gear to do PvP effectively.

The problem is not with people being "under" equipped, the problem is the damage increase of tactical powers are way way way too high when taking the other two classes into consideration.

The reason I say "nerf tacs" is that Cryptic are NOT CAPABLE of creating game balance. They have shown this within 3 years of play. So this is an easier option which does not serve the long time problem but will essentially take minimum Cryptic effort or intelligence. So they should love that idea.


This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek

Last edited by bluegeek; 03-25-2013 at 10:33 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
# 97
03-25-2013, 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darramouss1 View Post
Crying for tacs to be nerfed? Well, nerfing tacs isn't my main goal. It's balance. Nerfing tacs is just one step on that path.

If you think that the classes are equally balanced then you must be living in a dream world or you PRIMARY ship is an escort. How do I know? In every single thread about balancing the ships it is usually the escort players who seem to think that everything is all as it should be. What surprises me is the fact that there are escort captains in this thread who are stating that escorts are too powerful. To those captains I say thank you for being objective about the game. Objectivity when you have a stronger position is an admirable quality and shows true character.
no what I do think is you need to learn how to play your class iv seem lots of sci/engi toons do serious damage as well as tank everything thrown at them, why not use feed back pulse 3 and return all that dps back to the tac/escort use polaron wepons to drain there energy with energy syphon and that tac/escort cant turn or do any dps due to having no energy
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,754
# 98
03-25-2013, 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by retrosrages View Post
no what I do think is you need to learn how to play your class
Again with that old nugget. It is the worst thing you could have contributed to this thread. Then again I expected nothing else. Because you see a few successful science and engi players (and respect to them of course), you assume the entire class is fine. This is tunnel vision. The vast majority of science and engineers (who will not be on these forums to give their testament by the way) will not hold up anywhere near as well.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
# 99
03-25-2013, 09:13 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek

Last edited by bluegeek; 03-25-2013 at 10:36 AM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,754
# 100
03-25-2013, 09:17 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
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Last edited by bluegeek; 03-25-2013 at 10:39 AM.
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