Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 341
03-25-2013, 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralq1732 View Post
Both had 1 kill and the battle took 45 mins minium and we were hitting eachother and nearly kill eachother then mircale worker.
That's nice.

I'm pretty sure that the other guy let you kill him, or wasn't nearly as careful as he should have been.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,277
# 342
03-25-2013, 11:45 AM
Being incapable of building a decent ship doesn't mean its not possible, just that you aren't that capable. Attacking people that do better than you is a sign of a bad player.
Delirium Tremens
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,500
# 343
03-25-2013, 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
That's nice.

I'm pretty sure that the other guy let you kill him, or wasn't nearly as careful as he should have been.
No we were both very serious. you just can't stand the fact I just proved the theory wrong
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 344
03-25-2013, 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralq1732 View Post
No we were both very serious. you just can't stand the fact I just proved the theory wrong
All you've proved is that either cruisers have very low firepower or that escorts have very high durability. By having a battle drag on for over 40 minutes, you've disproven the oft-stated argument that cruisers are good at pressure damage, or that escorts are not good at tanking damage. Mind you, this is saying nothing about your skill, or the skill of your opponent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
Being incapable of building a decent ship doesn't mean its not possible, just that you aren't that capable. Attacking people that do better than you is a sign of a bad player.
What would you say about having to try much harder to do well in a secondary attribute than you would with another ship?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,500
# 345
03-25-2013, 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
All you've proved is that either cruisers have very low firepower or that escorts have very high durability. By having a battle drag on for over 40 minutes, you've disproven the oft-stated argument that cruisers are good at pressure damage, or that escorts are not good at tanking damage. Mind you, this is saying nothing about your skill, or the skill of your opponent.



What would you say about having to try much harder to do well in a secondary attribute than you would with another ship?
ONCE AGAIN note wasn't using my best ship at the time. anti proton mk11 vs antiproton mk 12, both of us eng. and he had more c store consoles. I'm saying BUILD matters. and note not the first time either. S5 i dueled 2v2 with my Neghvar and my ally a Galor vs an Oddy and a thunderchild. I held my own and was noted for surviving. And do note in my SC vs Prommie fight if my opponet was anything but a eng he would have died. Miracle worker saved him at the last minute many times.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 346
03-25-2013, 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralq1732 View Post
ONCE AGAIN note wasn't using my best ship at the time. anti proton mk11 vs antiproton mk 12, both of us eng. and he had more c store consoles. I'm saying BUILD matters. and note not the first time either. S5 i dueled 2v2 with my Neghvar and my ally a Galor vs an Oddy and a thunderchild. I held my own and was noted for surviving. And do note in my SC vs Prommie fight if my opponet was anything but a eng he would have died. Miracle worker saved him at the last minute many times.
Why are you talking about a situation that happened over a year-and-a-half-ago, and why are you talking about a KDF Battlecruiser?

Yes, build does matter, but you have yet to connect this to the actual performance of beam arrays in PvP. In fact, the conclusion that beam arrays are inferior to cannons is still readily apparent in the scenario that you have described. If you actually want to prove that beams are good, take two cruisers with almost-identical BOff and equipment layouts, load one with cannons/turrets and load the other with beam arrays.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,605
# 347
03-25-2013, 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
Why are you talking about a situation that happened over a year-and-a-half-ago, and why are you talking about a KDF Battlecruiser?

Yes, build does matter, but you have yet to connect this to the actual performance of beam arrays in PvP. In fact, the conclusion that beam arrays are inferior to cannons is still readily apparent in the scenario that you have described. If you actually want to prove that beams are good, take two cruisers with almost-identical BOff and equipment layouts, load one with cannons/turrets and load the other with beam arrays.
You should give up. I saw the build his opponent was using and it was quite incompetent. He had more c-store consoles, but they were gimmick consoles (barely useful if at all) and the rest of his console layout and weapon layout were inefficient. A half decent PvPer would have smashed the eng-scort with ease. But if he wants to use this as his baseline, then let him continue to be deluded.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,234
# 348
03-26-2013, 09:27 AM
People are missing the one part of the argument that has the most weight.

It doesn't matter how much damage things are doing relative to what or who can tank what or yadda yadda...

The only argument that matters at the end of the day is that beams don't feel fun. They feel bad. In a game that is the only real metric that has any bearing.

Numbers schnumbers, they mean jack if at the end of the day I didn't have an enjoyable experience.

When I use beams I feel like a joke. That should be fixed somehow, for fun's sake.

For numbers I just play better then that, and use cannons, because I'm intelligent enough to solve my own problems when given a solution.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!

Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,027
# 349
03-26-2013, 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmym View Post
The only argument that matters at the end of the day is that beams don't feel fun. They feel bad. In a game that is the only real metric that has any bearing.

Numbers schnumbers, they mean jack if at the end of the day I didn't have an enjoyable experience.

When I use beams I feel like a joke. That should be fixed somehow, for fun's sake.
I think this is a large part of the dissatisfaction tbh. Also the fact that you have to work to make them effective.

DHCs put out decent damage without the captain having to do anything except putting a group of them up front and hitting the rapid-fire button. Beams require the captain to manage weapon power much more aggressively in order to get the same base damage. And then you have to manage weapon power even more to get good numbers. And then you have to tweak your setup with particular types of beams and consoles to get very good numbers. And then you are struggling very hard just to compete with the tacscort who isnt even breaking a sweat. Its just more difficult to play beams, and there isn't the same kind of instant gratiication that comes from DHCs on an escort, in fact there's a little bit of feeling like a sucker for working so hard when you could just get an Andorian with 5 DHCs and be laughing.

Last edited by ursusmorologus; 03-26-2013 at 09:51 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,277
# 350
03-26-2013, 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
I think this is a large part of the dissatisfaction tbh. Also the fact that you have to work to make them effective.

DHCs put out decent damage without the captain having to do anything except putting a group of them up front and hitting the rapid-fire button. Beams require the captain to manage weapon power much more aggressively in order to get the same base damage. And then you have to manage weapon power even more to get good numbers. And then you have to tweak your setup with particular types of beams and consoles to get very good numbers. And then you are struggling very hard just to compete with the tacscort who isnt even breaking a sweat. Its just more difficult to play beams, and there isn't the same kind of instant gratiication that comes from DHCs on an escort, in fact there's a little bit of feeling like a sucker for working so hard when you could just get an Andorian with 5 DHCs and be laughing.
I'm going to disagree a little here. The problem isn't beams or cannons at all, its the massive disparity between incompetent and an expert player. In most games you might get 50% difference in skill from one player to another? STO its 1000%, go PUG some elite STFs, combatlog and find DHC users putting out 1-2k DPS, and compare that to a 15k DPS escort. There are cruisers regularly doing less than 1k DPS while mine can hit up to 10k.

Bad builds are boring. Cannon or beams if you are hitting for nothing, its just not exciting. I have a lot of fun in a beam boat once I got it set up right.

Escorts aren't an I win button, I see them out DPSed by good cruisers all the time, most people just can't fly them effectively. Having the escort build 75% correct makes you literally only 20% of the damage, which makes you a failure.
Delirium Tremens
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
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