Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 525
# 21
03-27-2013, 05:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by janewaywarrior View Post
As many of you have noticed, there is not much in the way of FvK PvP outside of elite groups, Fleets, etc...

Klingon ships on average seem to be more powerful then Federation vessels on both turning speed and general damage. Obviously, not discounting that there are some very skilled PvPers on the Klingon side that use their ships well but this is not to point fingers but to address some of the problems with Klingon PvP so that hopefully this will encourage more people to do it.

There are problems with PvP in general that I would like to address here as well.

*disclaimer* These are opinions based on my observations over the last 3 years. Please do not start mouthing off but offer constructive argument. Who knows, you may be right. I'm not a believer in creating "elitism" in the game so I'll happily admit when I am wrong.

1) Klingon PvP is Boring = What I mean to say is that Klingon PvP follows a predictable pattern. I have been in several matches when ships will just decloak and hammer away at a poor ship, damaging it hopelessly beyond all point of healing.

2) Science Spam is not fun = One particular skill ruins PvP in general I think. I realise that this is NOT unique to the Klingon side. I am off course talking about "Subnuclonic Beam" which can often be the deciding factor in any match. Sub-Nuc simply put, does too much in removing all buffs and I propose a way to fix this.

Science Sub-Nuc = It only removes "healing" buffs such as Reverse Shield Polarity and Engineers should have the ability that reduces power as well as coupling with Aceton beam to remove tactical buffs.

Simply put, a certain fleet is terrible for this but Sub-Nuc spam has got to go. There has to be some protection from being sub-nuc'd multiple times.

Simply put, players need to have some sort of "code of honor" regarding certain abilities in PvP.

Now I've given some of my bugbears, lets hear yours...

Playing against klingons is fine until these 2 players show up:

1.) The aceton ***** who will clutter the field of battle with those things.

2.) The Orion Interceptor *****, most likely in a karfi but nowadays often enough in recluses or jemdreads or JEC's who will send those broken ****s after you which will kill your mobility dead the moment they touch you.


Once either of those show up the fights gets intolerable and turns from a fun fight into a grinding exercise of futility.


Subnuc spam is endemic to all of pvp and not specific to klinker pvp.


Also: klingon cruisers are fun to fly and effective secondary damage dealers. Fed cruisers are not. Noone likes an uneven playing field.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 22
03-27-2013, 05:24 AM
*reads thread*

The FvK is strong with this one.

(as with most STO pvp occuring in the forums only)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Comm. Pion
What should I wish upon the endless universe;
To be able to smile and forgive everything;
That's right, if we light up the dream in our hearts without averting our eyes;
We should be able to walk whatever tomorrow comes...

I am V. Adm. Kha Yuung, and I approve of this message.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,667
# 23
03-27-2013, 05:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dova25 View Post
Fleet defiant's decloaking alfa and /or the new kumari shield stripping overload hit are in my opinion the the best shield punchers in this moment.
Sci in a Krenn using EF Disruptors (DBB, DHCs, Turrets - BO/CRF), Tet Glider, Leech, DOFF'd Tractor, Tach Beam is the fastest my shields have gone down with the additional fun of them dropping out the SNB/VM and Sensor Scan as the shields disappeared for additional hull action along with the HDR proc.

Even just the EFDs, Tet Glider, and Leech - you're looking at lowering the SDR from the EFDs and Leech in combination with the stripping of Glider.

I think it's because of the way the EFD's SDR debuff is being calculated - still trying to get somebody to confirm how it is working/supposed to be working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dova25 View Post
Best value Cheese :except aceton's ( i don't have them btw) and leech,all other consoles are available to federation at a much lower price.On kdf side you have to buy a c-store ship for a console ,as fed you can buy it from exchange very cheap.
AMS...
1500 Zen for a Fed - 623k EC (ran at 100-200k for the longest time)
1500 Zen ~= 12 Keys or 19.8m
1500 Zen ~= 3 FSMs or 15m
Even up at 623k EC, vs 15-20m EC - that's a good value.

I figure folks are buying up all the crossfaction consoles in anticipation of LoR...get 'em while they're hot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dova25 View Post
Best power drain :here it is again the comparison between siphon drones and danubes.Which are worse ? Hard to tell.Both will stop you and wreck your play.
Nah, the comparison isn't between ASDs and ADRs.

The comparison is between:

Tyken's, Energy Siphon, some form of Polarons...
...where one side also has ASDs, AAs, and Leech.

Was just about Drain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dova25 View Post
About the ship I agree that kdf would need some better punching ships than it has now.That is one of the reasons that most of PVP is done in lockboxes in this moment.(Best "raptor" =fleet defiant ,Best c-store sci =vesta ,Best c-store hec =armitage)
KDF battlecruiser's are nice and are considered better than federation counterpart.(I don't know,I didn't use them)
Bops are nice but you have to use a hit and run tactic with them and I personaly dislike this strategy.The veteran destroyer is a good ship but you have to pay a LTS for flying it.
Battle Cruisers are fat Escorts, heh - can't really compare Battle Cruisers and Cruisers - they're just so far apart. Meh, but Geko continues to talk about the Andorian Battle Cruiser for the Feds somewhere down the line. So even that is likely to disappear as well.

The Fleet Somraw gives up 1 turn, 1 Tac console (for a Sci console), picks up an En Eng instead of that third En Tac, has a 0.02 better shield modifier, and 1650 more base hull. Think a lot of folks look at the Fleet Qin vs. Fleet Defiant - looking at the BOFF layout - but the Qin gives up 2 turn and 10 inertia...regardless of the +0.02 shield mod/+3300 base hull/-1 Tac console/+1 Eng console...it's going to be that 2 turn/10 inertia I think most folks have felt. Cryptic definitely underestimates the value of turn/inertia...meh.

Fleet Defiant vs. Fleet Qin is brutally painful to look at...meh.
Fleet Defiant vs. Fleet Somraw though - that potential for full uptime on EPtS1/EPtW1 as well as the additional Sci console (or Uni console)...I think piloting could overcome the 1 less turn. Heck, add in that you can get the Somraw at T2 vs. Defiant at T3...

...but that's just paper, I fly none of those three.

It's kind of funny with BoPs, sometimes it's fighting for 15s and then cloaking again...sometimes it's not cloaking again. You're easily looking at 80-150% or more Bonus Defense - multiple ways to deal with Tractors - multiple ways to deal an inability to cloak for the short term. Creating BoPping can be fun.

Still, in the end I believe that the Feds have the edge - because most KDF that want to PvP actually want to PvP...they know if they go overboard with stuff, the Feds won't queue - there won't be any PvP. Because of that, they play at a certain disadvantage that they readily make up via skill/experience and teamwork. Most Feds complaining about the KDF are complaining about the wrong thing. They're likely even complaining about things that just arent happening or things they do not understand...it's a crutch complaint.


Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
U.S.S. Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser - U.S.S. Deogen, Phantom Intel Escort
U.S.S. Endless, Hazari Destroyer - U.S.S. Naked Sun, Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 61
# 24
03-27-2013, 09:27 AM
Leech isn't bad??? I would say leech is the most widely used imbalanced thing in the game. Here is a comparison with something the Klinks always QQ about: the 5th tac console.

A buddy of mine in game once told me that the 5th console wasn't a huge deal and I tested it for myself and agreed. I tested it again the other day for some numbers between 4 and 5 tac consoles on a F-Defiant using XI purple consoles. The toon had 9 in weapons training, 9 in energy weapons, and the +30 weapons training passive. I got 6.19% difference in DPS for adding a 5th tac console.

As a comparison, it seems most klinks and/or klink teams I run into use leech if not something stronger or a combination of all of them. Apparently some openly advocate it. If I'm pugging or in Kerat, I assume it will be there. Last time I 1v1'd someone in Kerat, I commented on the leech and he said even against someone with 9 ranks in insulators it 'only' does about 9 subsystem drain. That makes far more of a difference than one tac console. Here's why (and correct my math if you feel it's wrong):

Theoretically, in attack mode, a tac's weapons power starts at 125. If he is being leeched and has 9 in insulators, that would bring weapons power to a starting point of 116. Knowing that every 1 level of weapon power below 125 is a 2% reduction in DPS, the math is simple. So, -9 power x 2% = a -18% hit in DPS. 18% - the ~6% bonus from a 5th console = a 12% deficiency, 12/6=2. Seems feds are owed 2 more tac consoles.

That's just weapons though. How about everything else?

Shields: Every point above 50 increases regeneration by 4% and every point under 50 reduces regen by 4%. So, -9*4 = -36% reduction in regen. Perhaps feds should get 3 more sci consoles to slot 3 emitter amplifiers to make up for the drop in regen.

Engines: Every point of power above 50 represents a 2% increase in speed.Every point below 50 is a 2% decrease in base speed. So, -9x2 = -18% reduction in general speed. A XI Blue Injector Assembly provides +3.5 power to engines subsystem. 9 power/3.5 per console = 2.57. I guess the feds need a couple more engineering consoles to slot injectors.

Auxiliary: Every point above 50 increases the potency of sci abilities by 2%. Every point below 50 does the reverse and drops the modifier of the ability by 0.6%. So, using the same math from the engines example,-9x2 = -18% effectiveness, to make up for it, use Booster Modulators which also provide 3.5 power for a XI blue. 9/3.5 = 2.57. Again, toss in a couple more engineering consoles to slot booster modulators.

Keeping the comparison in terms of consoles, assume the Fed is flying a Fleet Defiant, he starts with a 3/2/5 console setup. Being leeched brings him down to a -7/-1/2 console setup.

What about the Klink shooting at him though? Assuming he gets that +9 power from leeching and he's in a Fleet Qin, he's got a 13/5/7 setup. [13 Engineering = 4 base + 2.5 * 4 bonus from leech - 1 spot for leech; 5 Sci = 2 base + 3 bonus from leech; 7 Weapon console = 4 base + 3 bonus from leech.]

That's probably about best case scenario. What if it goes to it's full -15 drain/boost or more because of flow caps? Or worse, what if it's something like aceton where the opponent is gimpped at 12 power until they can crawl out of range?

A group asked me to team up Fed side with them the other day and they q'd FvK. Both matches turned out to be against a team which I am buddies with 3 of the 5. They don't use these items. It was nice playing FvK without all of that stuff. It seemed very Star Trek.
RHINO | SAD PANDAS
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 677
# 25
03-27-2013, 09:30 AM
I noticed today that even KvK is being avoided and it seems some well known kdf pewers rather take KvF queue and Cap'N lulz. I was shocked to see it happen.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 677
# 26
03-27-2013, 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainf00k View Post
Leech isn't bad??? I would say leech is the most widely used imbalanced thing in the game. Here is a comparison with something the Klinks always QQ about: the 5th tac console.

A buddy of mine in game once told me that the 5th console wasn't a huge deal and I tested it for myself and agreed. I tested it again the other day for some numbers between 4 and 5 tac consoles on a F-Defiant using XI purple consoles. The toon had 9 in weapons training, 9 in energy weapons, and the +30 weapons training passive. I got 6.19% difference in DPS for adding a 5th tac console.

As a comparison, it seems most klinks and/or klink teams I run into use leech if not something stronger or a combination of all of them. Apparently some openly advocate it. If I'm pugging or in Kerat, I assume it will be there. Last time I 1v1'd someone in Kerat, I commented on the leech and he said even against someone with 9 ranks in insulators it 'only' does about 9 subsystem drain. That makes far more of a difference than one tac console. Here's why (and correct my math if you feel it's wrong):

Theoretically, in attack mode, a tac's weapons power starts at 125. If he is being leeched and has 9 in insulators, that would bring weapons power to a starting point of 116. Knowing that every 1 level of weapon power below 125 is a 2% reduction in DPS, the math is simple. So, -9 power x 2% = a -18% hit in DPS. 18% - the ~6% bonus from a 5th console = a 12% deficiency, 12/6=2. Seems feds are owed 2 more tac consoles.

That's just weapons though. How about everything else?

Shields: Every point above 50 increases regeneration by 4% and every point under 50 reduces regen by 4%. So, -9*4 = -36% reduction in regen. Perhaps feds should get 3 more sci consoles to slot 3 emitter amplifiers to make up for the drop in regen.

Engines: Every point of power above 50 represents a 2% increase in speed.Every point below 50 is a 2% decrease in base speed. So, -9x2 = -18% reduction in general speed. A XI Blue Injector Assembly provides +3.5 power to engines subsystem. 9 power/3.5 per console = 2.57. I guess the feds need a couple more engineering consoles to slot injectors.

Auxiliary: Every point above 50 increases the potency of sci abilities by 2%. Every point below 50 does the reverse and drops the modifier of the ability by 0.6%. So, using the same math from the engines example,-9x2 = -18% effectiveness, to make up for it, use Booster Modulators which also provide 3.5 power for a XI blue. 9/3.5 = 2.57. Again, toss in a couple more engineering consoles to slot booster modulators.

Keeping the comparison in terms of consoles, assume the Fed is flying a Fleet Defiant, he starts with a 3/2/5 console setup. Being leeched brings him down to a -7/-1/2 console setup.

What about the Klink shooting at him though? Assuming he gets that +9 power from leeching and he's in a Fleet Qin, he's got a 13/5/7 setup. [13 Engineering = 4 base + 2.5 * 4 bonus from leech - 1 spot for leech; 5 Sci = 2 base + 3 bonus from leech; 7 Weapon console = 4 base + 3 bonus from leech.]

That's probably about best case scenario. What if it goes to it's full -15 drain/boost or more because of flow caps? Or worse, what if it's something like aceton where the opponent is gimpped at 12 power until they can crawl out of range?

A group asked me to team up Fed side with them the other day and they q'd FvK. Both matches turned out to be against a team which I am buddies with 3 of the 5. They don't use these items. It was nice playing FvK without all of that stuff. It seemed very Star Trek.
Nice sumup f00k, i agree that with full spec u can get a 20/30 power level difference between target and self. Thats pretty good for just 1 console.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 27
03-27-2013, 09:45 AM
KDF attack by surprise as its in thier nature and design, just like some fed escorts do.
I see no issue with such tactics.

A well timed SNB is a valid tactic as well and is big part of any premade team in the Arenas.

The arenas are the only place where KDF participation seems low as CnHs and Kerrat are always popping well as a KDF player.

I see no issues with KDF toys as most are now crossfactional.

The leech doesnt strime me as bad at all since anyone with any amount of decent Power insulators can make the drain effects all but unnoticed by the target in game.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 03-27-2013 at 09:48 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 28
03-27-2013, 09:50 AM
Kdf ships really aren't that great honestly.

Fed ships on the other hand? Insanity.

I say this as a fed primary.

There's a reason all the top fleets are Fed.

The biggest problem with Feds, are most of them are bad. Like so bad that I question if they even installed the game by themselves.

There are some dumb KDFers too. But the Feds? Seriously, the game has been out for over 3 years. And some players -still- won't even balance their shields or still stupidly use boarding party.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 29
03-27-2013, 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainf00k View Post
Leech isn't bad??? I would say leech is the most widely used imbalanced thing in the game. Here is a comparison with something the Klinks always QQ about: the 5th tac console.

A buddy of mine in game once told me that the 5th console wasn't a huge deal and I tested it for myself and agreed. I tested it again the other day for some numbers between 4 and 5 tac consoles on a F-Defiant using XI purple consoles. The toon had 9 in weapons training, 9 in energy weapons, and the +30 weapons training passive. I got 6.19% difference in DPS for adding a 5th tac console.

As a comparison, it seems most klinks and/or klink teams I run into use leech if not something stronger or a combination of all of them. Apparently some openly advocate it. If I'm pugging or in Kerat, I assume it will be there. Last time I 1v1'd someone in Kerat, I commented on the leech and he said even against someone with 9 ranks in insulators it 'only' does about 9 subsystem drain. That makes far more of a difference than one tac console. Here's why (and correct my math if you feel it's wrong):

Theoretically, in attack mode, a tac's weapons power starts at 125. If he is being leeched and has 9 in insulators, that would bring weapons power to a starting point of 116. Knowing that every 1 level of weapon power below 125 is a 2% reduction in DPS, the math is simple. So, -9 power x 2% = a -18% hit in DPS. 18% - the ~6% bonus from a 5th console = a 12% deficiency, 12/6=2. Seems feds are owed 2 more tac consoles.

That's just weapons though. How about everything else?

Shields: Every point above 50 increases regeneration by 4% and every point under 50 reduces regen by 4%. So, -9*4 = -36% reduction in regen. Perhaps feds should get 3 more sci consoles to slot 3 emitter amplifiers to make up for the drop in regen.

Engines: Every point of power above 50 represents a 2% increase in speed.Every point below 50 is a 2% decrease in base speed. So, -9x2 = -18% reduction in general speed. A XI Blue Injector Assembly provides +3.5 power to engines subsystem. 9 power/3.5 per console = 2.57. I guess the feds need a couple more engineering consoles to slot injectors.

Auxiliary: Every point above 50 increases the potency of sci abilities by 2%. Every point below 50 does the reverse and drops the modifier of the ability by 0.6%. So, using the same math from the engines example,-9x2 = -18% effectiveness, to make up for it, use Booster Modulators which also provide 3.5 power for a XI blue. 9/3.5 = 2.57. Again, toss in a couple more engineering consoles to slot booster modulators.

Keeping the comparison in terms of consoles, assume the Fed is flying a Fleet Defiant, he starts with a 3/2/5 console setup. Being leeched brings him down to a -7/-1/2 console setup.

What about the Klink shooting at him though? Assuming he gets that +9 power from leeching and he's in a Fleet Qin, he's got a 13/5/7 setup. [13 Engineering = 4 base + 2.5 * 4 bonus from leech - 1 spot for leech; 5 Sci = 2 base + 3 bonus from leech; 7 Weapon console = 4 base + 3 bonus from leech.]

That's probably about best case scenario. What if it goes to it's full -15 drain/boost or more because of flow caps? Or worse, what if it's something like aceton where the opponent is gimpped at 12 power until they can crawl out of range?

A group asked me to team up Fed side with them the other day and they q'd FvK. Both matches turned out to be against a team which I am buddies with 3 of the 5. They don't use these items. It was nice playing FvK without all of that stuff. It seemed very Star Trek.


Very very good post captainf00k.

Well said, and a perfect summary.



Quote:
Originally Posted by darkfader1988 View Post
I noticed today that even KvK is being avoided and it seems some well known kdf pewers rather take KvF queue and Cap'N lulz. I was shocked to see it happen.

This.


The KvK queues are dead for the same reason FvK limps along in comparison to FvF.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 03-27-2013 at 10:05 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,379
# 30
03-27-2013, 10:10 AM
Lol if you have fed instant admirals go against veterans fighters from the pvp faction, who do you think is most likely to win, hmm?
Reality is WAR
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Fear the KDF!
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