Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,127
# 171
03-28-2013, 01:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
When it comes down to it, the TV series canon is more like a set of. . .guidelines, rather than actual rules.

When I say 'KDF concept', I mean 'it was originally an exclusive to the KDF faction in STO, until it was peddled off to greedy Federation players'. A prominent example of this is the carrier class. Other examples feature universal consoles that were 'traded', usually for access to less-useful Federation consoles.
That seems a little TOO heavily biased to really lend any credibility to your argument. To be honest the feds already have cloak, both in and out of game. What i'd like personally is two things: for the cloak to be battle cloak at it's basest level because that's how it was in the shows and movies. I'd be more than willing to succeed a lot of things in regards to cloak for that. As for the other thing it's that there have been numerous advancements in technology and this should be reflected in each factions Advanced Cloaking.

Truth be told, with the third faction coming soon being one that is more deserving of a cloak as well as a version better than the Klingons, will the klingons be whining for a cloak to match up with the romulans? During a war between 3 factions, two of which using advanced cloaking technology, why would the third not follow suit? With how much the Fed players are asking for it now, can you imagine how much they're going to want it with another faction having it as well? How much harder will it be for Cryptic to justify not letting them have it at that point?

Regardless of what KDF players want, it won't go away and frankly adding a second cloak capable faction is only going to make it more of an issue.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,250
# 172
03-28-2013, 02:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wraithshadow13 View Post
That seems a little TOO heavily biased to really lend any credibility to your argument. To be honest the feds already have cloak, both in and out of game. What i'd like personally is two things: for the cloak to be battle cloak at it's basest level because that's how it was in the shows and movies. I'd be more than willing to succeed a lot of things in regards to cloak for that. As for the other thing it's that there have been numerous advancements in technology and this should be reflected in each factions Advanced Cloaking.

Truth be told, with the third faction coming soon being one that is more deserving of a cloak as well as a version better than the Klingons, will the klingons be whining for a cloak to match up with the romulans? During a war between 3 factions, two of which using advanced cloaking technology, why would the third not follow suit? With how much the Fed players are asking for it now, can you imagine how much they're going to want it with another faction having it as well? How much harder will it be for Cryptic to justify not letting them have it at that point?

Regardless of what KDF players want, it won't go away and frankly adding a second cloak capable faction is only going to make it more of an issue.
Okay, let's take your ball and run it down hte field a bit.

What, exactly, are you willing to sacrifice to get a Battlecloak-capable ship?

seriously, what are you going to give up for it?

Here's what a KDF Bird of Prey gives up for Battlecloak:

Bridge officer seating (minus the Vet ship, no BC capable ship seats more than four Bridge Officers.)

Hull. Even the TOUGHEST (*non Vet) KDF ship with BC is significantly behind the lowest hulled Fed ship of the same tier.

Shield Modifier. Even the strongest shielded non vet-ship KDF vessel comes in significantly below the lowest Fed vessel of the same tier in shielding.

Weapons: The Bird of Prey comes at maximum load out with six weapons.

Weapons consoles: Only ONE Bird of Prey (cloak capable KDF vessel, iow) carries 4 tac consoles-and you have to pay 4 fleet modules AND have access to a T5 Fleet shipyard to buy it-and it has an identical Bridge Officer layout and hull numbers to the freeship Hegh'ta BoP, which is a L40 ship.

The Battlecloak-capable KDF vessels give up everything to balance that Cloak, can you dig that? they're basically a tier or two lower in actual performance compared to their Federation-side's nearest counterparts, for a Defiant driver, this would mean giving up either the 5th console on your Fleet version, or the 4th on your c-store version/rear admiral ship, along with a weapons emplacement, a good chunk of hull, AND shield power.

Mostly to have the privelage of being the ***** of every Shuttle-carrying Fed Sci out there, btw-because BC doesn't help you as much as you think it does, and you haven't taken damage until you've had to brace for impact in a minefield because those things are hitting right-directly-to-hull and doing direct crew damage while you're flying cloaked.

What I see in threads like this, is a lot of ignorant envy-the Feds posting these threads, and arguing for the ability, don't actually want to make the sacrifices-if they did, they'd roll Klingon characters and drive BoPs.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

I play KDF, because being a genocidal maniac works better with Klingons, than explaining it as a member of Starfleet.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,127
# 173
03-28-2013, 03:28 AM
I'm not really sure how that's running with my ball and again it's sounding to biased and angry not too mention that it sounds more like the KDF didn't sacrifice anything as it never had those things to begin with.

I've already listed a few ideas towards making it fair and more advanced, but i'd gladly give up the fifth console, I'd gladly allow the klingon ships to be upped stat wise, but that's not the argument i was making. If you're bitter about something by all means go ahead but don't start getting crazy on the forums over it as it's really not going to help your argument.


I'm not advocating buffing the fed cloak to make it OP, i've even said add a bigger Debuff when cloaked. All i'm saying is that

A: all cloak should be activated at will like battle cloak (since clarification is needed apparently)

B: There should be a faction specific advanced cloak for each faction based on the fact that the cloaking technology was already out dated by DS9 anyway.


As for going through a mine field, i'm not really sure why you would do that with out shields... it just seems silly.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 579
# 174
03-28-2013, 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
Member races of the Federation.
The member races of the Federation would object to a technology designed to protect the lives of their young officers serving on starships?

What?

Quote:
The Ferengi.
Why would the Ferengi care?
What would the Ferengi do about it if they did? Stop trading with the Federation and drastically reduce their own profits for no reason?

Quote:
Any other nonaligned races.
Why would they care?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjokruhlica View Post
Why doesn't the Federation have cloaks? Because Roddenberry didn't want them to. He felt that the good guys should not be skulking around invisibly.
I'm pretty sure he also wouldn't have wanted the Federation protagonist to have an innocent man assassinated no matter what the reason. And yet..

Last edited by lizwei; 03-28-2013 at 08:29 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 175
03-28-2013, 10:58 AM
My two cent's on the issue:

Even though there have been a few ships/prototypes its not really in the personality of the Federation, guys that love to run around brandishing their 'white hats' so everyone can see them, to have a more widespread use of cloaking technology that what we have currently.

There are too many opportunities to cloak during PvP and PvE, I can see the battle cloak being used more frequently than a standard cloak (which should be used to in the initiation of combat, not as much as we see it in game), but only lighter raider ships should be able to cloak approximately more than once in combat.

The decision in ST3 to change the enemy race from Romulans to Klingons and not change the script to accommodation has taken some of the spirit of the Klingons as "proud warriors". While it might be smarter to be stealth and elusive, a "loud and proud" race such as the Klingons don't wear the cloaking devices as well as the; cold, calculating and stab-the-enemy-in-the-back Romulan tradition.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 176
03-28-2013, 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lizwei View Post
The member races of the Federation would object to a technology designed to protect the lives of their young officers serving on starships?

What?

Why would the Ferengi care?
What would the Ferengi do about it if they did? Stop trading with the Federation and drastically reduce their own profits for no reason?

Why would they care?
Member races could object on ethical principles. I'm pretty sure that has been done in the past for lesser reasons than widespread use of cloaking devices.

They, the Ferengi, and non-aligned races could also object to the fact that suddenly, their big friendly neighbour has a fleet of ships that could sneak around doing who-knows-what.

Then there's the fact that well, the Federation has a strange sense of honour. You only need to recall how they dealt with the situation regarding colonization on the Federation-Cardassian border.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 579
# 177
03-28-2013, 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
Member races could object on ethical principles. I'm pretty sure that has been done in the past for lesser reasons than widespread use of cloaking devices.
What is unethical about a cloaking device used for recon and defence?

Quote:
They, the Ferengi, and non-aligned races could also object to the fact that suddenly, their big friendly neighbour has a fleet of ships that could sneak around doing who-knows-what.
What next? Maybe they should demand that all Federation ships fly around with no weapons and shields to prove they're friendly?
I was unaware that "Federation principles" means "be your annoying neighbour's personal *****"

Quote:
Then there's the fact that well, the Federation has a strange sense of honour. You only need to recall how they dealt with the situation regarding colonization on the Federation-Cardassian border.
Past idiocy does not justify present idiocy.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 99
# 178
03-28-2013, 12:34 PM
You taken many of our unique consoles, you can wield our bat'leths, hell you don't even need to be in the KDF to play as a kilingon, even took some of our faction only missions, and you can do all these things simply because you wanted them. Now you want our cloaks? What about our uniforms, you want them too? Why not just give you access to Qo'noS while we are at it? Want a Bird of Prey, sure why not.

You Feds will not be satisfied until you've taken every unique item the KDF has. You have a game company that caters to you, gives you more ships, more missions, more content, and yet that still isn't enough for you. You have to come and try to pick off whatever is left of the KDF.

Leave my unique stuff alone. You want a cloak create a kdf toon. Its not like you don't have one farming dil anyway.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 426
# 179
03-28-2013, 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lizwei View Post
What is unethical about a cloaking device used for recon and defence?
Look, even if you assume there are no diplomatic concerns with the Federation using cloaking technology (obviously silly), the long and short of it is that it's not really useful. The Federation is not in a position to make effective strategic or tactical use of the cloaking device other than very particular edge cases (the Defiant running into the Gamma Quadrant to spy on the founders, and even there its effectiveness was arguably dubious).

The Klingons know this. The Romulans know this. The only people who apparently don't understand the massive strategic limitations of the cloaking device are the people on the STO forums.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 180
03-28-2013, 01:53 PM
Reasons not to use a cloak

1 its cowardly and will lead to officers being seen as chicken
2 it will encourage piracy as all fed captains will be tempted
3 it causes MPB (male pattern baldness)
4 it is well known that ships with cloaks flown by humans blow up or crash into asteroids
5 It has been proven that federation officers who command cloaked ships violate the prime directive casually
6 Cloaked ships burn power which could be better used
7 I said so
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