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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 11
03-27-2013, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post


This is a monkey wrench the size of an asteroid.

Ok, let's add that in to the discussion and also go back a bit for some other assumptions I made so at least all of us are on the same page (or can correct me if I am wrong):

1) MACO 10% may or may not be subject to the above formula. If it is not subject to it, does it simply get added in at the end? The beginning?

2) Resilient shields have a 5% absorb property, it's my understanding that this gets factored in (STOked episode mentioned it).

Does it in fact get factored in to total shield resistances (my math above includes it)?

If it does, is this also not subject to the diminishing returns formula?

3) Elite Fleet Shields have 15% vs. 3 Energy types.

Does this function like the rumored MACO 10%, in that it is also not subject to diminishing returns?
Short of large sample size testing (or Bort making one of his magical appearances), I don't see a way to suss out what (if any) shield resist DR points there are.

However, given that shield resists are operating in a % based system, as opposed to the "rating" based system that hull resists operate under(IE: all shield resist boosts give flat percent modifiers, instead of the extremely nebulous numbers that hull resist boosts do), I'm inclined to argue that at face value the two systems do function differently.

Now, granted there could be a behind the scenes "rating" system that automagically converts shield resists to percentages...but given the fact that Cryptic was unwilling to convert hull resists to a percentage based system I don't think that's likely.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,094
# 12
03-27-2013, 11:23 AM
I posted this in another thread - and - wonder if it might not be answered as part of an overall answer to the question(s) posed in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer
edit: Totally misread that. Thought it said from him rather than on him.

That being said, I've wondered how the EF Disruptor's SDR debuff worked in regard to SDR.

@125 Aux/125 Shield (yes, there's help from a friend for the ExS3):

Shield Power 35%
EPtS3 30%
RSF 38.6%
TSS3 22.5%
ExS3 42.5%
ResA/B 15%
Adapt 20%

1-((1-0.35)*(1-0.30)*(1-0.386)*(1-0.225)*(1-0.425)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.20))
1-(0.65*0.70*0.614*0.775*0.575*0.85*0.80)
1-0.08465609425
91.53% or so...but there is a 75% cap, no?

Is that +16.53% a SDR overcap buffer? Does it still exist even though it is not applied?

If there is overcap buffer and the EF Disruptor SDR debuff hits, what is the new SDR?

75% - 25% + 16.53% = 66.53%

Or is there no overcap considered?

75% - 25% = 50%

Or is it a case that the SDR debuff is calculated during the normal SDR calculation?

1-(0.65*0.70*0.614*0.775*0.575*0.85*0.80*1.25)
1-0.1058201178125
89.42% or so...keeping the 75% cap in mind.

Basically a case that the EF Disruptor SDR debuff would have no effect on that particular person since they were already over the cap anyway?

Which would be the new number after the SDR debuff proc?
50%?
66.53%?
75%?
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 13
03-27-2013, 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I posted this in another thread - and - wonder if it might not be answered as part of an overall answer to the question(s) posed in this thread.
Absolutely, hopefully we can get some clarification.

Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 14
03-27-2013, 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I posted this in another thread - and - wonder if it might not be answered as part of an overall answer to the question(s) posed in this thread.
It's a very nice compilation of the theoretical max of shield resists, though it does seem to use the Adapt as a chunk, rather than stacks (though with that large of a resist pile I expect the different to be less than half a percent overall, and right now we don't even know which methodology is the correct one).

It also raises even more questions as to how anti-resists (such as the elite disruptor breach) play into the equation.

Does anyone have a Bort-whistle?

Last edited by stirling191; 03-27-2013 at 11:42 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 15
03-27-2013, 12:21 PM
1) The maco shield and resilient effects do not matter outside of the discussion of the potential diminishing returns if they do exist and they are not subject to it. When you are doing all multiplication the order does not matter in any way. Let us take the 100 damage example again with 20% resist, 10% maco, and 5% resilient. .8*.9*.95= .684 damage taken. So 100 damage would be 68.4 OR 100 * .8 = 80 * .9 = 72 * .95 = 68.4

2) Maco shield and resilient effects might reduce direct hull damage as well even when shield is down. It would make sense logically and my hull does seem to be more durable with those two but once again sample size and real testing would be required to prove this.
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Captain
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# 16
03-27-2013, 12:31 PM
I just thought about it again, this would be extremely easy to test because the game infact tells you the damage before and after resists. I just might do it later.
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# 17
03-27-2013, 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
1) The maco shield and resilient effects do not matter outside of the discussion of the potential diminishing returns if they do exist and they are not subject to it. When you are doing all multiplication the order does not matter in any way. Let us take the 100 damage example again with 20% resist, 10% maco, and 5% resilient. .8*.9*.95= .684 damage taken. So 100 damage would be 68.4 OR 100 * .8 = 80 * .9 = 72 * .95 = 68.4

What I'm unclear on (and maybe I'm in left field at this point, it's been a long day):


Assume I have 40% resistances, with MACO 10% handled separately.

Shot for 1000 damage.

Reduce by 50% (40% + 10% MACO) = 500 damage taken

Or

Shot for 1000 damage.

Reduce by MACO 10%

= 900 damage

Then Reduce by 40%

= 540 damage taken

Captain
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# 18
03-27-2013, 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
What I'm unclear on (and maybe I'm in left field at this point, it's been a long day):


Assume I have 40% resistances, with MACO 10% handled separately.

Shot for 1000 damage.

Reduce by 50% (40% + 10% MACO) = 500 damage taken

Or

Shot for 1000 damage.

Reduce by MACO 10%

= 900 damage

Then Reduce by 40%

= 540 damage taken
The second method. You never ever add %s in video game math. Never.

Ok thats not entirely true, you do with games that don't know crits can scale to silly stupid high levels.
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# 19
03-28-2013, 06:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
The second method. You never ever add %s in video game math. Never.

Ok thats not entirely true, you do with games that don't know crits can scale to silly stupid high levels.

Have you seen what BP and SNB or the SS Doff are currently doing?

Never say never to things that "shouldn't be done" in video games.


Until I hear from someone on systems I'm not making any more assumptions about how these resistances interact.

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
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# 20
03-28-2013, 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Have you seen what BP and SNB or the SS Doff are currently doing?

Never say never to things that "shouldn't be done" in video games.


Until I hear from someone on systems I'm not making any more assumptions about how these resistances interact.
I never claimed this game followed basic logic in some of it's design decisions. Infact every single mechanical/system problem in this game comes down to things using the * that shouldn't I hate to say.

Beyond that though did a quick test and viewed log. Keep in mind number in () is what the damage should have been, outside is actual after resists AFAIK

Situation A
Total Reduction = 57.3% (35% shield power, 18% EPtS 1, 20% DIS)
Hit: 70 (124) or reduced by 43.5%

Situation B
Total Reduction = 54% (35% shield power, 18% EPtS 1, 10% Maco, 5% Resilient)
Hit: 184(354) or reduced by 48%

My conclusions from those two numbers are:

1) Shield resist does have built in diminishing returns
2) Maco 10% and/or Resilient 5% are not subject to said diminishing returns.

If we then go look at STO wiki and the armor diminishing returns we see that 100 magnatiude which would grant 50% resist without the built in penalty in the formula grants 48% instead. So what I'm seeing above is not lining up as the penalty would be too severe.

Moving on if we instead assume the log is lying in some way perhaps instead that would explain it. Even then I cannot see a way to make it work properly I will need to re-think my test methodology and try again some other time.
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