Go Back   Star Trek Online > Feedback > Builds, Powers, and Game Mechanics
Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 21
03-28-2013, 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
I never claimed this game followed basic logic in some of it's design decisions. Infact every single mechanical/system problem in this game comes down to things using the * that shouldn't I hate to say.

Beyond that though did a quick test and viewed log. Keep in mind number in () is what the damage should have been, outside is actual after resists AFAIK

Situation A
Total Reduction = 57.3% (35% shield power, 18% EPtS 1, 20% DIS)
Hit: 70 (124) or reduced by 43.5%

Situation B
Total Reduction = 54% (35% shield power, 18% EPtS 1, 10% Maco, 5% Resilient)
Hit: 184(354) or reduced by 48%

My conclusions from those two numbers are:

1) Shield resist does have built in diminishing returns
2) Maco 10% and/or Resilient 5% are not subject to said diminishing returns.

If we then go look at STO wiki and the armor diminishing returns we see that 100 magnatiude which would grant 50% resist without the built in penalty in the formula grants 48% instead. So what I'm seeing above is not lining up as the penalty would be too severe.

Moving on if we instead assume the log is lying in some way perhaps instead that would explain it. Even then I cannot see a way to make it work properly I will need to re-think my test methodology and try again some other time.

Interesting, well thanks for testing this at least.

I have a few testing ideas I'd like to try but my time is a bit limited at the moment unfortunately.

Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,466
# 22
03-28-2013, 12:53 PM
The straight calculated (IE: no DR applied to the equation, and all values weighted equally (IE: all used as multiplicative modifiers)) resists for both scenarios are very close to observed numbers.

For A it's a 42.6% calculated resist versus a 43.5% observed resist. 1 - (.65*.82*.8)

For B it's a 45.5% calculated resist versus a 48% observed resist. 1 - (.65*.82*.9*.95)


Which seems to lend credence to there being both a DR of some sort and resist modifiers being weighted equally (IE: none flatly applied outside a multiplicative scenario). Obviously there could also be something crazy going on in the equation that just mimics what I think I'm seeing, and so I'd want to see considerably more data points before I jumped to anything resembling a conclusion however.

Last edited by stirling191; 03-28-2013 at 12:57 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 418
# 23
03-29-2013, 11:09 AM
I don't believe you're looking at the damages in the combat log correctly. You have to look at shield damage and non shield damage as below.

Brigadier General G'vorkk's Disruptor Array dealt 184 (272) shield damage to you.
Brigadier General G'vorkk deals 30 (533) Disruptor Damage to you with Disruptor Array.

The 1st line is shield damage. The 2nd line is hull damage. If you had no shield you'd only see the 2nd line. Easily confirmed by doing a mission that has those fields that removes your shield.

So looking at this you have to get the max hit value. In this case it's (533) before factoring in anything. Since I was using a regen shield I have 10% bleed thru. So hull damage should be 53.3 before factoring in resists. My resistance for disruptors on my paperdoll is 43.2%. So math is

533*.1=53.3
53.3*.568=30.27 hull damage I should receive. Damage received to hull was 30 actual. Perfect.

Next we look at shield damage before resist etc. Damage should be 90% of 533 as 10% went to your hull.

533*.9=479.7 (call it 480 shield damage before resists etc)

Now you'd think the log would show (480) in line 1. Instead it shows (272). And or it would show (533) as line 2 did. But it doesn't show it this way.

Here's an example of me having shield power at 50 and no EPTS etc. Ignore the hull actual damage as I removed some resist consoles. FYI tried this with the resist consoles and had same results for shield damage. Which is how it should be.

Klingon Cruiser 3 K't'inga TOS's Disruptor Array dealt 300 (268) shield damage to you.
Klingon Cruiser 3 K't'inga TOS deals 30 (524)

300/524=57.252% damage received
damage resisted=42.748%

The following test is the same conditions except shield power is at 98.

Klingon Raider 5 Haj's Disruptor Array dealt 277 (330) shield damage to you.
Klingon Raider 5 Haj deals 37 (531) Disruptor Damage to you with Disruptor Array.

So raising shield power increased the () on line 1. It also lowered the actual damage to shields. Damage resisted was.

277/531=52.166% damage received
damage resisted=47.834%

So increasing shield power from 50 to 98 increased my resistance by a bit over 5%.

Now i'll try using EPTS which gets me another 30% resist.

Klingon Cruiser 3 D7's Disruptor Array dealt 164 (311) shield damage to you.
Klingon Cruiser 3 D7 deals 35 (500) Disruptor Damage to you with Disruptor Array.

164/500=32.8% damage received
damage resisted=67.2%

Not really seeing a problem here. Seems to be fine.

Last edited by dragonsbite; 03-29-2013 at 11:14 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,197
# 24
03-29-2013, 11:26 AM
Ok so the original damage before factoring anything in is shown on the hull hit line. That makes sense as that always did confuse me.

But then what on earth is the number in () on the shield line representative of?
STO has a diverse group of players with a wide range of expectations and playstyles. To that end the STO team should endeavor to create a variety of content with a diverse set of difficulty levels and challenges. Cake for everyone!
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 418
# 25
03-29-2013, 11:52 PM
Not sure it represents anything sadly. At least I haven't been able to figure out what it represents. I've noticed that it stays semi constant % wise with the [] on line 2. Different types of shields do change this number. Also other things change it. Here's a few examples between 2 shield types.

Let's try a Regenerative shield

shield power 50, regen shield with no resist
[10:54] [Combat (Self)] Negh'Var Warship's Disruptor Array dealt 381 (252) shield damage to you.
[10:54] [Combat (Self)] Negh'Var Warship deals 28 (494) Disruptor Damage to you with Disruptor Array.

[252]/[494]=51% []vs[]
381/494=77.1% damage received, 22.9% resisted

shield power 118, regen shield with no resist
[10:58] [Combat (Self)] Negh'Var Warship's Disruptor Array dealt 329 (279) shield damage to you.
[10:58] [Combat (Self)] Negh'Var Warship deals 31 (546) Disruptor Damage to you with Disruptor Array.

[279]/[546]=51% []vs[]
329/546=60.3% damage received, 39.7% resisted

No let's try a Covariant shield

shield power 50, Covariant shield with no resist
[11:30] [Combat (Self)] Negh'Var Warship's Disruptor Array dealt 385 (268) shield damage to you.
[11:30] [Combat (Self)] Negh'Var Warship deals 14 (498) Disruptor Damage to you with Disruptor Array.

[268]/[498]=54% []vs[]
385/498=77.3% damage received, 22.7% resisted

shield power 118, Covariant shield with no resist

[11:37] [Combat (Self)] Negh'Var Warship's Disruptor Array dealt 338 (302) shield damage to you.
[11:37] [Combat (Self)] Negh'Var Warship deals 16 (560) Disruptor Damage to you with Disruptor Array.

[302]/[560]=54% []vs[]
338/560=60.4% damage received, 39.6% resisted

So the only difference between the 2 shields was hull damage was less with the Covariant. The [] number was higher for the Covariant shield on line 1. However Damage received and or resisted was the exact same. So the trade off between a Covariant shield and a Regen shield is one has less HP, more regen and receives more hull damage and the other has more HP, less regen and takes less hull damage.

FYI I only ever use Regen shields as the hull damage received is to low to worry about. And the shield regen is extremely helpful. If you like not surviving use a Covariant or Resilient shield. If you like to survive use a plain jane normal non named shield or a Regen shield. Although there are situations where the increased shield HP is helpful. But I tank elite STF's with a hair over 9k shield HP and rarely die. If I die it's usually my fault and not a product of having low shield HP.

I'd say completely ignore the [] number on line 1. Even when It did change by changing shield type, damage received and or resistance still remained the same.

Last edited by dragonsbite; 03-30-2013 at 12:05 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,197
# 26
03-30-2013, 12:47 AM
Curious did you have any abilities active during that logging? Otherwise 22.9% is higher than what just 50 shield power should be giving as resist.
STO has a diverse group of players with a wide range of expectations and playstyles. To that end the STO team should endeavor to create a variety of content with a diverse set of difficulty levels and challenges. Cake for everyone!
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 418
# 27
03-30-2013, 04:14 AM
No powers active to lower resistance. Most of the resistance is from shield power level.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,197
# 28
03-30-2013, 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonsbite View Post
No powers active to lower resistance. Most of the resistance is from shield power level.
Then it doesn't make sense. Shield power is supposed to give 35% resist at 125 power AFAIK. Your showing more than that and not even at full power.

Er only 90% of base hits your shield 446.6 for the first example. 85.3% taken resist of 14.7% which makes perfect sense. At 50 power your resist would be 14% but you likely have another fraction of a power or so that would explain the difference.
STO has a diverse group of players with a wide range of expectations and playstyles. To that end the STO team should endeavor to create a variety of content with a diverse set of difficulty levels and challenges. Cake for everyone!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,197
# 29
03-30-2013, 10:42 PM
Ok new test.

Basic shield with [pla] + 125 power + EPtS 1
20%/35%/18% = .8*.65*.82 = .4264 damage taken or 57.36% resist

Hit 1
181(322)
36(471)

Base = 471: to Shield = 423.9 : Dmg taken = 181/423.9 = .427 or 57.4% resist

Maco shield + 125 power + EPtS 1
10%/35%/18% = .9*.65*.82 = .4797 damage taken or 52.03% resist

Hit 1
236(394)
21(546)

Base = 546 : to Shield = 491.4 : Dmg taken = 236/491.4 = .480 or 52% resist

So no diminishing returns if the log isn't lying. Odd though the hull damage are so close even though one shield should only be allowing 5% to hit the hull. I have 24% hull resist so lets look at those.

Normal shield
36/47.1 = .764 or 23.5% resist close enough

21/27.3 = .77 or 23% resist I suppose close enough due to how small the number is.

Conclusions?
No diminishing returns on shield resistance.
First () number still makes no sense. Imma try and mess with that though.

Going with hit 1 from base shield we had 322/471 = 68%. That number remained constant in all the hits until...I equipped a field generator. 354/448 = 79%.

Pre Field Gen Shield total = 5330
Post Field Gen Shield total = 6047

We know that resistance does not effect the ratio, nor does regen or the damage. But shield total increasing does increase the % of base damage shown in the first ().

WTF?

Ok we are using a steamrunner that means shield mod is 1.0 so we can ignore that. Field generator adds 17.5% capacity for the one I was using. Shield system skill is at 99 so that is 30% I believe to shield capacity. Without skill or field gen I should have (i think) 4100 shield roughly. Bah that still is not adding up to anything useful.

So we know it is somehow related to the shield capacity of the ship it shoots at. The shield was a Mk 1 Standard Shield Array [Dis]. I'm lost again lol.
STO has a diverse group of players with a wide range of expectations and playstyles. To that end the STO team should endeavor to create a variety of content with a diverse set of difficulty levels and challenges. Cake for everyone!

Last edited by bareel; 03-30-2013 at 11:10 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 716
# 30
03-31-2013, 03:09 PM
Quoting myself from another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Here are the relevant raw formulas:

total shield damage reduction = product of individual shield damage reductions

So if you have a shield resist of 25% and a second one of 25%, they will give 1 - (1-.25) * (1-.25) = 1 - .75^2 = 43.75%. (A resist of x% corresponds to a damage reduction factor of 1-x/100).

The damage reduction factor from shield power is calculated as (1 - shield power * 0.0028).

To read the combat log entries, you have to understand the structure. Each line contains two numbers and each shot against shields will give two lines (one for shield damage, the other one for hull damage).

The values in these two lines are:

Shield damage: x (y) with
x = base damage * (1 - shield power * 0.0028) * (product of other shield reductions) * 0.9
y = base damage * (1 - hull resist) * 0.9 (with 0.95 instead of 0.9 in case of resilient shields)
x is the net damage done to the shields. y is the avoided hull damage.

Hull damage: x (y) with
x = base damage * (1 - hull resist) * 0.1 (with .05 instead of .1 in case of resilient shields)
y = base damage
http://hilbertguide.com
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:31 AM.