Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,219
# 51
03-28-2013, 08:54 AM
I would have empathy for the KDFs lack of sci ships, but...

I've bought and flown a *LOT* of ships. I know what its like to buy a ship thinking "This is the one, this is going to rock" and then... meh... in dry dock with the rest...

The VQ and the Kar'Fi both blow any Fed sci ship out of the water. The Atrox is the only one even in the running, and while I favor her, the VQ is technically the better ship. Even the mighty Vesta is a poor substitute for a well flown carrier.

If the KDF were to get more sci ships, it would be more ships in mothball, and more under performing ships in pugs...
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!

Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 52
03-28-2013, 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmym View Post
Oddly, the Atrox doesn't tank as well as it looks on paper. I think it has to do with its speed.

The Atrox suffers not only from a low turn rate, but low inertia rating and top speed. Given the same gear I'm still going to suffer more hits and crits then a cruiser.

I'm not saying the Atrox isn't da bomb, just its a flimsier tank then you would expect her to be, a heavy sci cruiser could match her tricks and eat fire that would smoke my Atrox in one shot. Of course the Atrox would out DPS it, but that is ok, because if the Atrox took the hit instead of the cruiser the Atrox wouldn't have lived to do that DPS, and it wouldn't be a huge DPS margin in the best of cases.

The beauty of the Atrox is, as opposed to a ship like the Ody that can spec hard down any one road and do very well, the Atrox can soak an apprecable amount of damage, deal a crazy amount of damage, heal like a woman possesed, and have a full complement of sci tricks all at the same time. It suffers by not hitting quite the peak in any one of those areas ever. (Well, unless your in a pug of bads. A good Atrox can do more then an entire group of bads combined...)
Caitian has the same impulse modifier as other Federation cruisers, so I doubt it will take more hits and crits. Turnrate may be worse, but then Federation cruisers aren't much better off either. And inertia only affects how fast changes in movement take place, so I doubt that it will affect defence value.

The only plausible explanation as to why you are not surviving nearly as well is because of the lesser Engineering capability. Regardless, the fact is that you're still putting out a lot better than a cruiser in almost every imaginable way. In a match as an Engineer with a Star Cruiser purely specced towards healing and support, I wound up with 800k heals against 1.1 mil heals from a Tactical captain flying an Atrox, and did less damage to boot. I died once, but the other guy didn't.

Furthermore, the Atrox can afford to make extensive use of Science debuffs, which not only helps your team, but also yourself. If you've flown cruisers for any period of time, you'll appreciate just how vulnerable cruisers are to being pushed around or stopped dead in their tracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Bitemepwe's point was that a huge change was asked for in regards to Federation cruisers, and to maintain parity the exact same change should be implemented for the KDF equivalent.
There was absolutely nothing in there about "well, the Feds get XYZQ and W, therefore all of that should be added to KDF ships".

Secondly, do you really want to defend the position that there's no science ship disparity when the only KDF science ship is one you have to drop twenty bucks on?
There's only about three science vessels that actually see regular use in PvP, primarily because the rest are trash. One of them is a lockbox ship, and the other two you have to pay for. Again, the KDF aren't missing out on a lot there, and are arguably in a better position to use some science abilities.

I'm asking for a significant change to the function of Federation cruisers because I feel that at present, their specifications are far too restrictive and are becoming obsolete with changes to overall gameplay and fresh content additions. There's simply too much of a single-minded focus on Engineering, which isn't really good at anything but self-buffing and repair support. Building for damage is possible, but very tricky; using non-healing sci abilities are almost never an option. Escorts and science vessels are not nearly as inflexible cruisers are in this respect, and even KDF battlecruisers are slightly better off there than Federation cruisers.

That's why I suggest replacing some specialized slots on Federation cruisers with a Universal Console slot and two Universal BOff stations, along with an increase in turn rate. They will retain their Cmdr Eng station and require at least two BOff stations to be a set specialization, but two other stations would be changed over to either two Lts or one Lt Cmdr and one Ens.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,219
# 53
03-28-2013, 11:27 AM
Thanks for the info about the impulse modifier, I was curious if that was the reason, It must be something else.

I have spent much time in a cruiser, I just don't find the problems to be as severe as made out to be. 90% of the problem can be fixed by using a single cannon build and dropping the beams other then one for BO or the romulan beam for BO and the 3pc. Beams I dislike. I've never found a way to make them perform adequatlely.

I wonder why my Atrox splats so much more often, then. Must be the eng skills meaning more then I valued them.

Edit: Or I might get a god complex behind helm and take on more then I can handle /giggle.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!

Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard

Last edited by kimmym; 03-28-2013 at 11:31 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 11
# 54
03-28-2013, 07:38 PM
Without wanting to get into the debate as to what might (or might not) improve cruisers, I have to question the initial poster's premise -

"With the introduction of increasing numbers of heavy carrier vessels..."

Really, where are all these carrier vessels? I ask this because in my experience I don't see them being played. Yes, you do see the occasional one, but Id say that in the Federation faction at least, they're pretty rare. :-)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,219
# 55
03-28-2013, 07:44 PM
It takes a strong pilot to handle the big girls.

Most people see a strong carrier pilot, go OMG OP!!!!, rush out, gear one up, and then... They seem to disappear.

The Carriers themselves rock, but piloting one is a labor of love at times. Even I say screw it and hop in my Beta Vector for a change, and I love my Atrox.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!

Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 56
03-29-2013, 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redcardinali View Post
Without wanting to get into the debate as to what might (or might not) improve cruisers, I have to question the initial poster's premise -

"With the introduction of increasing numbers of heavy carrier vessels..."

Really, where are all these carrier vessels? I ask this because in my experience I don't see them being played. Yes, you do see the occasional one, but Id say that in the Federation faction at least, they're pretty rare. :-)
Well, there are a lot more carrier vessels out there now than there have been since the beginning of the last year, both in terms of overall number and type.

The point of concern that I have is that a lot of carriers have similar characteristics and capabilities as Federation cruisers while being able to do more. At this rate, I feel that cruisers are going to be in a position where the entire type becomes more or less pointless because there are ships out there that do everything they do and more.
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