Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 158
# 221
03-30-2013, 11:17 PM
Do this for me.
Go to a Federation Fleet Starbase. Go to the Requisitions Room to the desk in the far left corner. Look for the Caitian fighter reinforcements and read what is in its description.
OMG! A FREAKING CLOAKING DEVICE! Like OMG! I though Feds don't use cloaking devices! Why the heck does a fighter have a cloaking device?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,587
# 222
03-30-2013, 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trwarbuck View Post
Do this for me.
Go to a Federation Fleet Starbase. Go to the Requisitions Room to the desk in the far left corner. Look for the Caitian fighter reinforcements and read what is in its description.
OMG! A FREAKING CLOAKING DEVICE! Like OMG! I though Feds don't use cloaking devices! Why the heck does a fighter have a cloaking device?
That's not a cloak. It's a form of stealth technology, yes, but not a cloak.

Cloaking in Star Trek, and this is taken from Memory alpha, is "cloaking uses selective bending of light and emission dampening to render a ship totally invisible and undetectable."

That does not. It is a form of stealth, yes, but it is masking the energy and such of those fighters, making them harder to detect on sensors.

It is stealth, but it is not a true cloaking device. It's more along the lines of trying to use stealth technology in our world now, as a means of hiding planes and such from radar.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 223
03-31-2013, 02:55 AM
Imho, cloak in the way implemented now is far to effective. I say that playing Klingon as main faction. You have to invest alot to penetrate the cloak of KDF vessels. However, if done so, they are highly vulnerable, which is a bad thing too.

I think, giving cloak the way it works now to another faction is just making things worser then they already are.

Invisibility in MMORPGs is very difficult to balance out even on a single class, like rogues. I find it insane to give 90% of playerbase of an faction invisibility.

A solution would be a counter ability bound to any fed ship like cloak is bound to most of KDF vessels. This ability would put you in red alert and boost your sensors so that at equal sensor/stealth skill cloaked vessels can be detected up to 5 - 8 kilometers.

At the same time, if Klink vessels are cloaked, their shields stay online, however, cloak put them in red alert not allowing them to travel with full impulse. These type of cloak also should not give an damage bonus on uncloak.

Exeptions would be Bird of Prey class vessels, that should have en enhance cloaks which is effective like cloak now, because these ships are heavily relying on stealth attacks. Shields of BoP class will stay offline for cloaking, damage bonus stays.

Of course, since KDF and FED vessels are currently stat wise balanced due to the fact of invisibility, KDF vessels need to be adjusted in their stats. In addition, Kerrat spawn need to be fixed. Often, as a KDF player, you have no chance to re-spawn at all if not using your cloak, because of spawn camping Fed players.

Last edited by xiphenon; 03-31-2013 at 03:05 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,092
# 224
03-31-2013, 03:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squishkin View Post
I would be more sympathetic to this argument if in fact the KDF UI didn't make my eyes bleed.
The Devs HAVE promised to fix that problem for you. in May.

Of course, the "Cloak" you want, you don't want to sacrifice anything FOR...

Just like everything ELSE KDF that Fed Players want.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 426
# 225
03-31-2013, 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Of course, the "Cloak" you want, you don't want to sacrifice anything FOR...
I have been arguing probably most strongly in this thread that the Federation shouldn't have a cloaking device.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 367
# 226
03-31-2013, 02:45 PM
While I agree that Feds should not get the cloak, I think they should get more viable or widespread ways to detect cloaked ships. After all Federation is at war with Klinks for long enough to counter cloaking system that (in general ideas) is what - 200 and something years old.

Nebula consoles or that small boost sci ships are getting is not enough. Especially as onle one class of ships get those tools and only one type of ships get the boost (however small), while cloak is available on all Klingon ships.

The detection ability should be native to all Starfleet ships, be a active ability with CD of a length of a cloaking devices and should give the same bonus to detection as cloaking is giving to stealth (measured in range to detect vs range to hide). So all in all fully specced ship with active ability should be able to detect cloaked ships with same amount of aux/stealth consoles/stealth skill as he invested into sensors from a range that would make cloaked alpha strike a suicide.

It should be balanced so that fully specced detector should be able to detect a full specced cloaker from something like 5 km. Battle cloak, by the name of it, should half that range. Nebula consoles should double it.

Perhaps make the weapons disabled while this skill is used, but give the ability to "switch off and fire" to give some way of getting at stupid cloaker before he can do his attack. Lower the acc for some time after disabling this skill to lower the chance of destroying shuch ship. Klinks want to sneak - make it really risky.

And yeah, I know the reaction of Klinks on something like this. It would "imbalance" the game (though I do not know how), make the Klinks unplayable (why?) and such. But in reality it would just make the game harder for KDF players and force them to use cloak as strategic (positioning) not tactical device.

Not to mention that with current "cloak, cloak everywhere" it would make PvP somehow playable.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,092
# 227
03-31-2013, 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
While I agree that Feds should not get the cloak, I think they should get more viable or widespread ways to detect cloaked ships. After all Federation is at war with Klinks for long enough to counter cloaking system that (in general ideas) is what - 200 and something years old.

Nebula consoles or that small boost sci ships are getting is not enough. Especially as onle one class of ships get those tools and only one type of ships get the boost (however small), while cloak is available on all Klingon ships.

The detection ability should be native to all Starfleet ships, be a active ability with CD of a length of a cloaking devices and should give the same bonus to detection as cloaking is giving to stealth (measured in range to detect vs range to hide). So all in all fully specced ship with active ability should be able to detect cloaked ships with same amount of aux/stealth consoles/stealth skill as he invested into sensors from a range that would make cloaked alpha strike a suicide.

It should be balanced so that fully specced detector should be able to detect a full specced cloaker from something like 5 km. Battle cloak, by the name of it, should half that range. Nebula consoles should double it.

Perhaps make the weapons disabled while this skill is used, but give the ability to "switch off and fire" to give some way of getting at stupid cloaker before he can do his attack. Lower the acc for some time after disabling this skill to lower the chance of destroying shuch ship. Klinks want to sneak - make it really risky.

And yeah, I know the reaction of Klinks on something like this. It would "imbalance" the game (though I do not know how), make the Klinks unplayable (why?) and such. But in reality it would just make the game harder for KDF players and force them to use cloak as strategic (positioning) not tactical device.

Not to mention that with current "cloak, cloak everywhere" it would make PvP somehow playable.
Um, you haven't PvP'ed recently, have you? Lemme give you a bit of info you appear to lack.

A sci/sci WILL detect, and stay on, you in Cloak at 5KM already. even Battlecloak, if they're even fractionally aware of what they're doing and not gimping their own specs for lulz.

Yestday's Cap&Hold runs, for example, had a team of 3 Fed Sci and two 'others' vs. a KDF team consisting of 1 vet ship, 1 Hoh'sus, and three other KDF BoPs (mine was a Heggie and the only one without STF, Fleet, or Set Bonus gear of some sort).

The Sci ships in question were a Vesta, Recon Sci, and Intrepid, the Tacs were a Bug, and a Kumari.

I can assure you, they were able to detect and stay on a KDF BoP that was on Evasive, cloaking, with full spec to Stealth skills just fine at 5+Km as the KDF players were handily dragged out of Cloak by Tractor Beams practically as soon as they got close to that Fedball (aka within tractor-beam range.)

This went down on two out of three runs almost identically, the third run both teams were short players and KDF had an AFK hiding in the spawnpoint, so it was less of a match, but properly specced out, working as a team, Feds do NOT have ANY trouble countering KDF cloak as it sits right now.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.

Last edited by patrickngo; 03-31-2013 at 02:58 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 367
# 228
03-31-2013, 03:17 PM
Yeah... sci ship. With most likely heavy investment into t4 ability to detect something that's native for all it's enemies. And what about "others"? Every Klingon ship can cloak. Can every Starfleet ship detect cloak as efficiently as sci? Are KDF ships other then Raiders/BoPs gimped when it comes to stealth as much as are escorts and cruiser when it comes to stealth detection?

Answers to both question is no. The only KDF ship I'm aware of that has some sort of "cloak to size" problems is bortaS. All others are in happy "we are cloaking" land while the other side is limited to sci ships as detectors only. And that with the investment to t4 skill and most likely sci consoles.

How much had Klink ship to invest to be practicly undetectable at any meaningfull range to anyone but a sci (assuming that sci invest into sensors)? Nothing at all, right. Just get the ship, press button, be undetectable unless you run into someone that has invested into sensors. And if you invest into stealth, the chance of being detected by anyone but a flying sci stealth detector are close to null.

And the last time I PvPed was a month or so ago. In a kinetic DSSV stealth detector. Lot of fun. But my second toon was eng in star cruiser. The difference between detection range was... quite big (me being polite here) even with 9 pts into sensors and sensor console for my eng. All while a half-brain-dead Ker'rat lurker in his battle cruiser was just as undetectable for my whale as some hunter-killer in his raptor.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,092
# 229
03-31-2013, 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
Yeah... sci ship. With most likely heavy investment into t4 ability to detect something that's native for all it's enemies. And what about "others"? Every Klingon ship can cloak. Can every Starfleet ship detect cloak as efficiently as sci? Are KDF ships other then Raiders/BoPs gimped when it comes to stealth as much as are escorts and cruiser when it comes to stealth detection?

Answers to both question is no. The only KDF ship I'm aware of that has some sort of "cloak to size" problems is bortaS. All others are in happy "we are cloaking" land while the other side is limited to sci ships as detectors only. And that with the investment to t4 skill and most likely sci consoles.

How much had Klink ship to invest to be practicly undetectable at any meaningfull range to anyone but a sci (assuming that sci invest into sensors)? Nothing at all, right. Just get the ship, press button, be undetectable unless you run into someone that has invested into sensors. And if you invest into stealth, the chance of being detected by anyone but a flying sci stealth detector are close to null.

And the last time I PvPed was a month or so ago. In a kinetic DSSV stealth detector. Lot of fun. But my second toon was eng in star cruiser. The difference between detection range was... quite big (me being polite here) even with 9 pts into sensors and sensor console for my eng. All while a half-brain-dead Ker'rat lurker in his battle cruiser was just as undetectable for my whale as some hunter-killer in his raptor.
again, you don't know your KDF ships well, or you'd KNOW what was sacrificed to have that Cloak (for the sake of "balance"), Federation ships don't sacrifice anything-a Defiant w/Cloak doesn't lose a fraction of shield multiplier or hull for it, nor console space (as they have the option to go without), nor Bridge seating, nor impulse modifier...

The "typical" KDF ship is the Bird of Prey-it's the most common design out there, it's also (usually) a softer target than a Danube Runabout even when out of cloak, while cloaked, it's straight-to-hull vulnerable to Mines (which see you just fine in Cloak), and many (most) carrier pets used by the Federation.

Effectively the only thing Cloak gives you, is a slight initiative advantage-one that is easily countered by existing Federation capabilities when applying proper teamwork principles. Raptors (the KDF equivalent to Federation Escorts) suffer manueverability, durability, and shield strength deficiencies in exchange for that easily-countered initiative bonus, and while ALL federation ships can staff all-human Bridge officers (with that nifty "Teamwork" proc that boosts your recovery), KDF has nothing equivalent there, either.

and, in KvK play (the rare times it happens) guess what?

Cloakers don't see each other any better than anyone (except a Science ship, which is a whole CLASS of ships the KDF don't have aside from a pair of designs roughly equivalent to the 'free' fed ships and one lockbox ride) else.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 230
03-31-2013, 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Um, you haven't PvP'ed recently, have you? Lemme give you a bit of info you appear to lack.

A sci/sci WILL detect, and stay on, you in Cloak at 5KM already. even Battlecloak, if they're even fractionally aware of what they're doing and not gimping their own specs for lulz.

Yestday's Cap&Hold runs, for example, had a team of 3 Fed Sci and two 'others' vs. a KDF team consisting of 1 vet ship, 1 Hoh'sus, and three other KDF BoPs (mine was a Heggie and the only one without STF, Fleet, or Set Bonus gear of some sort).

The Sci ships in question were a Vesta, Recon Sci, and Intrepid, the Tacs were a Bug, and a Kumari.

I can assure you, they were able to detect and stay on a KDF BoP that was on Evasive, cloaking, with full spec to Stealth skills just fine at 5+Km as the KDF players were handily dragged out of Cloak by Tractor Beams practically as soon as they got close to that Fedball (aka within tractor-beam range.)

This went down on two out of three runs almost identically, the third run both teams were short players and KDF had an AFK hiding in the spawnpoint, so it was less of a match, but properly specced out, working as a team, Feds do NOT have ANY trouble countering KDF cloak as it sits right now.
This. In effect, the ability to detect cloaked vessels is one of several things science ships AND science officers are good for. Disperse such anti-cloak measures to all ships, and suddenly sci has even less meaning.

And yeah, the Feds have little trouble detecting cloaked ships nowadays. Heck, they don't even have to use abilties, per se. Mines can detect and decloak vessels that get caught by 'em accidentially, along with the emission-seeking torpedo and so on. Then there's the Tachyon Detection Grid that he mentioned. On top of that, there's the science officer's sensor scan ability that will reveal most cloaked enemies within 5km.

Competent Federation PvPers know how to fight the cloak. That's why the cloak isn't the ridiculously OP thing that certain Feddies like to claim. . .it doesn't make you invulnerable, and its uses are situational and mostly restricted to ambushing/first strike advantages. Balanced teams and teamwork will overcome these advantages. The only ships that can really use the cloak as a centerpiece of their tactics are the BoPs, and they sacrifice quite a bit to get that.

Last edited by travelingmaster; 03-31-2013 at 08:50 PM.
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