Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,189
# 11
03-31-2013, 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
Completely valid as a tactic, the only issue I have is when the bop is still cloaked and all the attacks are cloaked so you can't see anything anywhere. Even with a reactive sensor scan and being in a sci ship, you still see nothing. Not even the freaking attacks or the wave from the shockwave.


That's when I have a problem.

And yes I am bitter that cryptic hasn't fixed it.
If Red goes to Holo on Thursday, it should be fixed then...no?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 677
# 12
03-31-2013, 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
If Red goes to Holo on Thursday, it should be fixed then...no?
Yes. The fix is on Redshirt right now.


To the OP: Shockwave is a commander science ability, 4 second stun, but since season 4 you can resist to it with dampeners in the skill tree, consoles, etc. On top of that the damage effect is so nerfed that they can just as well totally remove the damage effect all together. What else do you want to nerf on it? Nerf it to 2 second, and skill for resistance to it so you have a 1 second stun on a Commander Sci ability? Cmon.

On top of that, Omega can basically be rotated on an escort (and other ships every 30 seconds, giving you basically a 50% resistance per minute to it). Use tactical teams in between and you are almost invulnerable to any alpha, even from the best bop players.

Aux to Internal Dampeners skill also resists shockwave stuns, so I'd say plenty of counters and reductions of effect.

When shocked you can still use a few abilities like Sci team or Engi team, and a few others I think.

The problem with whiners about Shockwave is because they are all sitting ducks not having buffed a single ability when flying around, yeah. thats simply going to get you killed. Learn to prebuff, play smart with your abilities. Make it so that your rotating abilities are on your WASD/Spacebar keys etc, saves you alot of QQn.
Its pretty staight forward that if you try to buff up AFTER you got shocked, it might already be too late.
And never stop distributing shields whenever possible might also be a good idea



Sorry I dont ment to be mean but the crying about these abilities is just ungrounded (Except for B'rels that dont show themselves at all when using something in Enhanced cloak, which will soon be fixed)


For the rest, unless the BoP has some very lucky crits, most alphas can easily be countered with a bit of resistance, a Tactical team, and an EPTS. If you never prebuff those in advance, or rotate them smartly with omega, yeah you are simply going to die.


If you still have no clue what im talking about, i would friendly request you to attend to PvP bootcamp, and hopefully learn how to counter all this with greater success.

Last edited by darkfader1988; 03-31-2013 at 01:21 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 13
03-31-2013, 06:03 PM
you can still use rsp and team skills, so i dont find builds of that type a problem
and there are too many skills with immunity to disables, science team can clear jam sensors
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
# 14
03-31-2013, 07:53 PM
you cant press anything to counter them as what ever it is the are doing is shutting down my whole tray for 4/5 seconds I cant press a thing and in 1 or 2 seconds im dead, iv got 114 in both sub system and dampners so if it shuts me down for 4/5 seconds with that many points what does it do to those without, the bops that fly around in karat like lolly and minimax know the set up im talking about they use it very well and there is no defence too it or if there is its a split second

Last edited by retrosrages; 03-31-2013 at 07:56 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 199
# 15
03-31-2013, 08:49 PM
Retrosrages, it sounds like you're having difficulty surviving the initial PSW stun. Surviving the stun and the strike that follows is all about getting the critical buffs that will keep you alive up before the stun hits, and then applying repairs/other countermeasures when you regain control. You'll need to pay attention and anticipate PSWs before they hit you, but once you do you'll easily counter most of these alpha strikes.

There are number of hard counters to the stun effect caused by PSW, and a number of soft counters that will help you survive the followup strike. Here are a couple:
  • Attack Pattern Omega: Hard counter. Directly prevents the stun effect from PSW. Use this before you get hit by PSW and you won't be locked out of your abilities. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.)
  • Auxiliary to Inertial Dampeners: Hard counter. Also directly counters the stun effect from PSW.
  • Tactical Team: Soft counter, but extremely effective. Use this before the PSW hits; you'll still be stunned, but their attacks won't instantly break your shields and cripple your hull.
  • Any abilities that grant shield/hull resist: Soft counters. Use them to strengthen your shields/hull and you'll be more likely to survive until you regain control of your abilities.
  • Evasive Maneuvers: Extremely soft counter, but occasionally effective. Remember, you can still pilot your ship while stunned; pop Evasive and then spin around them to throw off their firing arcs.

The main thing that I'd like to point out is that you have to pop these counters before you get hit by PSW. This means that you need to pay attention to what's going on around you. Here are some suggestions:
  • Turn up your audio; you can often hear the cloaked bops applying their buffs and preparing their alpha strike.
  • Watch for other debuffs being applied to you; some bops will use VM or tractor beams on you before they go through their PSW + alpha strike. When you see these debuffs, get your trigger finger ready on your counters.
  • Above all, stay alert. Even when they're starting from cloak, it usually takes a second (and produces a distinctive sound) to decloak. Use this time to apply your counters. You won't get to hit more than one or two, but any one of the above counters should be enough to save your bacon.

Just speaking from my experience, TT + EPtS is usually enough to keep you alive through the stun. Mini can attest to the many times I've foiled his alpha strikes -- not only on me, but also on any other target he might be trying to tackle.

The PSW + BO + THY + whatever bop strike is high-risk, high-reward. It will kill you if you're not prepared, but if you pay even the slightest amount of attention to what's going on and apply your counters correctly, you will survive these alpha strikes -- at which point you should make those silly klinks rue the day they decided to target you!

Last edited by renimalt; 03-31-2013 at 08:52 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,384
# 16
03-31-2013, 11:37 PM
Sounds like you might have some lag issues, though. Might want to check your ping counts. If you have high ping, you'll have no choice but to anticipate, same way I do. I've faced Mini before, and while he is good, if I can get my buffs in the moment I hear him decloak, he's not really effective unless he gets multicrits, in which case nothing will save you.
Take it easy!

Ishmael@scurry5: A Nibbling Sci
"Squeak?"
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 17
03-31-2013, 11:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by renimalt View Post
Retrosrages, it sounds like you're having difficulty surviving the initial PSW stun. Surviving the stun and the strike that follows is all about getting the critical buffs that will keep you alive up before the stun hits, and then applying repairs/other countermeasures when you regain control. You'll need to pay attention and anticipate PSWs before they hit you, but once you do you'll easily counter most of these alpha strikes.

There are number of hard counters to the stun effect caused by PSW, and a number of soft counters that will help you survive the followup strike. Here are a couple:
  • Attack Pattern Omega: Hard counter. Directly prevents the stun effect from PSW. Use this before you get hit by PSW and you won't be locked out of your abilities. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.)
  • Auxiliary to Inertial Dampeners: Hard counter. Also directly counters the stun effect from PSW.
  • Tactical Team: Soft counter, but extremely effective. Use this before the PSW hits; you'll still be stunned, but their attacks won't instantly break your shields and cripple your hull.
  • Any abilities that grant shield/hull resist: Soft counters. Use them to strengthen your shields/hull and you'll be more likely to survive until you regain control of your abilities.
  • Evasive Maneuvers: Extremely soft counter, but occasionally effective. Remember, you can still pilot your ship while stunned; pop Evasive and then spin around them to throw off their firing arcs.

The main thing that I'd like to point out is that you have to pop these counters before you get hit by PSW. This means that you need to pay attention to what's going on around you. Here are some suggestions:
  • Turn up your audio; you can often hear the cloaked bops applying their buffs and preparing their alpha strike.
  • Watch for other debuffs being applied to you; some bops will use VM or tractor beams on you before they go through their PSW + alpha strike. When you see these debuffs, get your trigger finger ready on your counters.
  • Above all, stay alert. Even when they're starting from cloak, it usually takes a second (and produces a distinctive sound) to decloak. Use this time to apply your counters. You won't get to hit more than one or two, but any one of the above counters should be enough to save your bacon.

Just speaking from my experience, TT + EPtS is usually enough to keep you alive through the stun. Mini can attest to the many times I've foiled his alpha strikes -- not only on me, but also on any other target he might be trying to tackle.

The PSW + BO + THY + whatever bop strike is high-risk, high-reward. It will kill you if you're not prepared, but if you pay even the slightest amount of attention to what's going on and apply your counters correctly, you will survive these alpha strikes -- at which point you should make those silly klinks rue the day they decided to target you!
I'd like to emphasize the point made about keeping your ears open and staying alert. I'm one of those guys who likes to fly BoPs in Ker'rat and decloak-ambush players and try killing them in a single alpha, or at least maiming them and making them burn through skills. The easiest kills are always people who are drifting around not really paying attention, or are more focused on shooting the Borg NPCs than watching their backs.

When you pay attention, the attack buffs are actually quite audible, and most BoP pilots will activate them within 5-6 km because some don't last very long. That, and staying alert and keeping your fingers on your important first-reaction buffs is crucial. Reaction speed is everything, because an alphastrike can be over in 5 seconds and if it's a BoP they could already be on their way out by the time you react.

It may seem sneaky or cowardly, but this is basically one out of two viable uses for a BoP. The other is as an offensive-sci harasser, throwing around gravity wells, tractor beams, VMs, and whatnot. That's effectively what the BoP has been reduced to, because it can't compete with Federation escorts straight-up unless the escort is being piloted by an incompetent.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 18
04-01-2013, 03:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by renimalt View Post
Retrosrages, it sounds like you're having difficulty surviving the initial PSW stun. Surviving the stun and the strike that follows is all about getting the critical buffs that will keep you alive up before the stun hits, and then applying repairs/other countermeasures when you regain control. You'll need to pay attention and anticipate PSWs before they hit you, but once you do you'll easily counter most of these alpha strikes.
You know me Renim, you know that I am a somewhat capable escort player, and as weird as it may sound, the OP has a point.

Under normal circumstances, the attacked player has a time window of about 1 second to react to the incoming stun.

Under certain circumstances (I don't wanna get into details), the time window to react is ZERO. The stun gets applied on you before the BOP decloaks and get targetable itself. I have frapsed and watched these attack runs in slow motion. In a nutshell, right now BOPS are capable of stunning while they are cloaked. Listening to audio clues will not help. "Staying alert" will not help.

Visit the Inner Circle YouTube Channel to watch some pew pew PVP action!

Last edited by ilhansk; 04-01-2013 at 03:51 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
# 19
04-01-2013, 07:07 AM
my ping is 28ms I run on fibre optics so my connection is ok. As they other guy said you get stunned before they even decloak these days and there seem to be a way around the 20 second cool down on the battle cloak as well, a bop should have to fully decloak before they can unleash any stun or debuff but lets see what happen after the romulan boff fix

Last edited by retrosrages; 04-01-2013 at 07:15 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,813
# 20
04-01-2013, 07:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilhansk View Post
You know me Renim, you know that I am a somewhat capable escort player, and as weird as it may sound, the OP has a point.

Under normal circumstances, the attacked player has a time window of about 1 second to react to the incoming stun.

Under certain circumstances (I don't wanna get into details), the time window to react is ZERO. The stun gets applied on you before the BOP decloaks and get targetable itself. I have frapsed and watched these attack runs in slow motion. In a nutshell, right now BOPS are capable of stunning while they are cloaked. Listening to audio clues will not help. "Staying alert" will not help.
Should be fixed in the next patch I believe. Then we shouldn't see anymore brel weak sauce.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
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