Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 18
# 91
04-01-2013, 10:29 AM
Try running an elite STF with only escorts that do not heal each other at all, see how far you get with completing the optional, you will see that you need at least ONE tank in there.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 92
04-01-2013, 10:51 AM
uh... Those are most ESTFs pugs I run into. Heck I rarely see escorts healing each other since they rarely need heals. If they know how to fly and kit their ships that is...theres always a skittles escort out there.

We actually win with minutes left in the timer.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 19
# 93
04-01-2013, 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercode123 View Post
Try running an elite STF with only escorts that do not heal each other at all, see how far you get with completing the optional, you will see that you need at least ONE tank in there.
There is no tank needed in estf. Escorts can tank borg encounters easely longer than necessery.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 12
I've come back to the game from a while of not playing. The last time I was really playing was near release. My first thoughts at seeing the new skill trees were happiness. Threat skill?! You mean we can have Cruisers tank and let escorts unload on targets?! Awesome! I think I'll start a tank and give this a try.

I get to 50 in short order and build a tank based from several days of reading guides. Decent gear, nothing hugely expensive. So I'm going to queue for a STF and give this a go. I get in and things are going well. A lot of things basically tickle my shields, barely get any hull damage. I'm holding great threat, none of the escorts are stealing threat. Then it happens. A RNG triggers a huge hit... not even a crit. I go from about 90-95% shields and 100% hull to a dust field. 200k damage. huh?!

Ok, I'm thinking by the time I get back there the typical limping escort scenes from back in the day will be going on and I will have to grab the cube's attention and.... wait.... that escort's tanking the cube by flying really fast?! That escort that has paper shields, and a near non-existent hull is tanking better than a cruiser with stacked resists, 10k+ shields, and 50k hull?!

Fine, whatever, I'll go science and debuff/heal. I liked the skills. There are lots of combinations to build with and I enjoy the ground game with the science captain so this should work out well for me. Again get to 50, get the gear, queue for STF and there's nothing to do. Literally, when I approached a large group to GW3 or TR, they would die before the well or rift developed. Why? It could be the 4 escorts focusing the group with scatter volley/spread. Ok so I'll just heal them up when they need it right? There will be a boss fight eventually. Nope, really not needed since these little Iron Space Cannons are self sufficient enough to heal themselves faster than I can heal them.

Ok, so I'll just go back to my pew pew pew repeat captain and play him. Oh hey look I got a JHAS! This will be fun right?! Worst Ship Ever! Yes I said it, huge firepower, amazing movement, outstanding tank. Undoubtedly the worst ship ever. I can now talk to friends on the phone, read forum posts on a secondary monitor and play with my dog all while pulling a minimum of 5k dps. The game's become a facerolling event and utterly boring because of it. I only wish I had sold that JHAS. At least then I could have had something to work towards. I don't even play that tactical much anymore.

I'm back to my Science character. Trying to get it to work in STFs but the skills are a joke now. I get whispers about how little dps I'm doing. Ok, alt-tab look at the parser... yep. 3k dps to their 9k, yea I can see the difference. Oh hey look the other science capt'n that's flying in circles in his rainbow boat shouting "Weeeeee! Firin mah lazors!" while using fireworks to give extra effect to his light show is doing 2.5k dps. Great, extra effort on my part has yielded 500 extra dps... maybe light shows really are that fun? Seems off when that amount of extra effort on a tac captain in an escort can yield 5k dps minimum and less ridicule.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just wanting to play the roles that "people don't want to play" and be appreciated for having a positive impact in a group instead of being looked down on for not having more dps.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 95
04-01-2013, 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stossr2 View Post
A RNG triggers a huge hit... not even a crit. I go from about 90-95% shields and 100% hull to a dust field. 200k damage. huh?!

Ok, I'm thinking by the time I get back there the typical limping escort scenes from back in the day will be going on and I will have to grab the cube's attention and.... wait.... that escort's tanking the cube by flying really fast?! That escort that has paper shields, and a near non-existent hull is tanking better than a cruiser with stacked resists, 10k+ shields, and 50k hull?!
As fun as anecdotal stories are those escorts will also pop when hit with the RNG one hit wonder. It happened to me today, and again a day ago, and so on and on. I hear that if you're using the right armor consoles and are particularly tanky some cruisers can survive it. My own cruiser alt has yet to live through it though. How often they happen feels totally random too; some STFs you get hit and the guilty torpedo is invisible to boot, others you can see it but due to close ranges you really cant do anything in time unless you were already running FAW, and other times you clearly have agro and the one shot never hits. Its totally random!

As far as sci vessels go.... their heathen space magicks are of little use against the Borg. Quite a while ago the Borg were made more of less immune to most of the sci debuffs. About the only reliable thing to hit them with is Grav Well but only as a CC not a damage dealer. I would susggest either full power to weapons with low powered Sci powers or go full aux/shield and use all kinetic weapons.

To b fair the best sci vessels these days are actually the full carriers you see floating around as well as the Vesta (a ship that thinks its a HEC), and possibly the wells timeship (a sci vessel maneuverable enough to easily mount DBBs as standart and has got to be an amazing kinetic weapon delivery platform)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorceror01 View Post
....you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
However, I think with regard to the Romulan Republic player characters/npcs, it all comes down to a finite point:

These are not the Romulans from the shows.

Last edited by skyranger1414; 04-01-2013 at 09:18 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,229
# 96
04-02-2013, 05:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stossr2 View Post
I've come back to the game from a while of not playing. The last time I was really playing was near release. My first thoughts at seeing the new skill trees were happiness. Threat skill?! You mean we can have Cruisers tank and let escorts unload on targets?! Awesome! I think I'll start a tank and give this a try.

I get to 50 in short order and build a tank based from several days of reading guides. Decent gear, nothing hugely expensive. So I'm going to queue for a STF and give this a go. I get in and things are going well. A lot of things basically tickle my shields, barely get any hull damage. I'm holding great threat, none of the escorts are stealing threat. Then it happens. A RNG triggers a huge hit... not even a crit. I go from about 90-95% shields and 100% hull to a dust field. 200k damage. huh?!

Ok, I'm thinking by the time I get back there the typical limping escort scenes from back in the day will be going on and I will have to grab the cube's attention and.... wait.... that escort's tanking the cube by flying really fast?! That escort that has paper shields, and a near non-existent hull is tanking better than a cruiser with stacked resists, 10k+ shields, and 50k hull?!

Fine, whatever, I'll go science and debuff/heal. I liked the skills. There are lots of combinations to build with and I enjoy the ground game with the science captain so this should work out well for me. Again get to 50, get the gear, queue for STF and there's nothing to do. Literally, when I approached a large group to GW3 or TR, they would die before the well or rift developed. Why? It could be the 4 escorts focusing the group with scatter volley/spread. Ok so I'll just heal them up when they need it right? There will be a boss fight eventually. Nope, really not needed since these little Iron Space Cannons are self sufficient enough to heal themselves faster than I can heal them.

Ok, so I'll just go back to my pew pew pew repeat captain and play him. Oh hey look I got a JHAS! This will be fun right?! Worst Ship Ever! Yes I said it, huge firepower, amazing movement, outstanding tank. Undoubtedly the worst ship ever.
I can now talk to friends on the phone, read forum posts on a secondary monitor and play with my dog all while pulling a minimum of 5k dps. The game's become a facerolling event and utterly boring because of it. I only wish I had sold that JHAS. At least then I could have had something to work towards. I don't even play that tactical much anymore.

I'm back to my Science character. Trying to get it to work in STFs but the skills are a joke now. I get whispers about how little dps I'm doing. Ok, alt-tab look at the parser... yep. 3k dps to their 9k, yea I can see the difference. Oh hey look the other science capt'n that's flying in circles in his rainbow boat shouting "Weeeeee! Firin mah lazors!" while using fireworks to give extra effect to his light show is doing 2.5k dps. Great, extra effort on my part has yielded 500 extra dps... maybe light shows really are that fun? Seems off when that amount of extra effort on a tac captain in an escort can yield 5k dps minimum and less ridicule.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just wanting to play the roles that "people don't want to play" and be appreciated for having a positive impact in a group instead of being looked down on for not having more dps.
Completely agree!

Would love to stick a bunch of those Escort heros in the Aquarius/Fleet Aquarius, particuarly those with the stupidly OP JHAS. Of couse, they won't fly the Aquarius because it's a glass cannon! (okay, it has other issues, but that one is the core of it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by robdmc View Post
Remember, this place [Captain's Table] is so desolate that upon entering the Aenigma Nebula you will be prompted with a warp out box because the game thinks you flew there by mistake.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 12
# 97
04-02-2013, 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
As fun as anecdotal stories are those escorts will also pop when hit with the RNG one hit wonder. It happened to me today, and again a day ago, and so on and on. I hear that if you're using the right armor consoles and are particularly tanky some cruisers can survive it. My own cruiser alt has yet to live through it though. How often they happen feels totally random too; some STFs you get hit and the guilty torpedo is invisible to boot, others you can see it but due to close ranges you really cant do anything in time unless you were already running FAW, and other times you clearly have agro and the one shot never hits. Its totally random!

As far as sci vessels go.... their heathen space magicks are of little use against the Borg. Quite a while ago the Borg were made more of less immune to most of the sci debuffs. About the only reliable thing to hit them with is Grav Well but only as a CC not a damage dealer. I would susggest either full power to weapons with low powered Sci powers or go full aux/shield and use all kinetic weapons.

To b fair the best sci vessels these days are actually the full carriers you see floating around as well as the Vesta (a ship that thinks its a HEC), and possibly the wells timeship (a sci vessel maneuverable enough to easily mount DBBs as standart and has got to be an amazing kinetic weapon delivery platform)
I guess the points I'm trying to make with the stories are:

What point are cruisers when a dps spec'd escort can tank just as well as any tank spec'd cruiser?
What point are science ships when escorts can scatter volley/torp spread things into dust before any CC is needed? When dps spec'd escorts can heal themselves just as well as a science ship?

The answer is none. As a science or engineering captain it makes more sense to forget the typical roles the ships were designed to do and gear them towards dps and dps only (i.e. go get an escort). This is what is broken with the game. It's not that tacs or escorts are OP. It's that the content favors a dps race and needs to change.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 98
04-02-2013, 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stossr2 View Post
I guess the points I'm trying to make with the stories are:

What point are cruisers when a dps spec'd escort can tank just as well as any tank spec'd cruiser?
What point are science ships when escorts can scatter volley/torp spread things into dust before any CC is needed? When dps spec'd escorts can heal themselves just as well as a science ship?

The answer is none. As a science or engineering captain it makes more sense to forget the typical roles the ships were designed to do and gear them towards dps and dps only (i.e. go get an escort). This is what is broken with the game. It's not that tacs or escorts are OP. It's that the content favors a dps race and needs to change.
I agree to some extent, but I would also say that Sci abilities at least are somewhat underpowered. I've had agro from the ISE Tac Cube, popped TR2 and ES1 with max flow caps and Aux power, and watched the damage numbers its beams were getting, and they didn't change at all. That's a maxed out Lt. power plus a maxed out LtC. power having zero effect. That's a problem.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 99
04-02-2013, 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stossr2 View Post
I guess the points I'm trying to make with the stories are:

What point are cruisers when a dps spec'd escort can tank just as well as any tank spec'd cruiser?
What point are science ships when escorts can scatter volley/torp spread things into dust before any CC is needed? When dps spec'd escorts can heal themselves just as well as a science ship?
You are mistaken if you believe an escort can tank or heal as well as a cruiser or do space magic to any noticeable degree. These two ships have a lower DPS output by design because they bring other advantages that are nice but not required. They are sidegrades not upgrades as it should be. Glass cannons and the trinity have no real place in a sci fi setting of any kind (or even a fantasy one but its a crutch from days gone by).

You don't NEED an escort's extra DPS, a cruiser's tankyness, or a sci vessel's space magics to get anything done, they are all nice to have but not mandatory. This is a good thing and I will not lament the fact we're not forced to get tanks and healers. While some players do enjoy those roles most do not. Its not coincidental those are always teh classes lacking for group content in other MMOs. Also, isn't it funny players aren't really crying about those roles not being mandatory, but rather about how their dps doesn't compare to escorts? What sense would it make for the non dps ships to do as much damage as the dps ships? Probably as much sense as making it mandatory to hve a cruiser stand around while a sci vessel heals it so that the bad guys put on blinders and focus only on it....
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorceror01 View Post
....you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
However, I think with regard to the Romulan Republic player characters/npcs, it all comes down to a finite point:

These are not the Romulans from the shows.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 12
# 100
04-03-2013, 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
As fun as anecdotal stories are those escorts will also pop when hit with the RNG one hit wonder. It happened to me today, and again a day ago, and so on and on. I hear that if you're using the right armor consoles and are particularly tanky some cruisers can survive it. My own cruiser alt has yet to live through it though. How often they happen feels totally random too; some STFs you get hit and the guilty torpedo is invisible to boot, others you can see it but due to close ranges you really cant do anything in time unless you were already running FAW, and other times you clearly have agro and the one shot never hits. Its totally random!

As far as sci vessels go.... their heathen space magicks are of little use against the Borg. Quite a while ago the Borg were made more of less immune to most of the sci debuffs. About the only reliable thing to hit them with is Grav Well but only as a CC not a damage dealer. I would susggest either full power to weapons with low powered Sci powers or go full aux/shield and use all kinetic weapons.

To b fair the best sci vessels these days are actually the full carriers you see floating around as well as the Vesta (a ship that thinks its a HEC), and possibly the wells timeship (a sci vessel maneuverable enough to easily mount DBBs as standart and has got to be an amazing kinetic weapon delivery platform)
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
You are mistaken if you believe an escort can tank or heal as well as a cruiser or do space magic to any noticeable degree.
If cruisers can shield/hull tank and escorts can speed tank (i.e. move faster to make defenses go up and present the proper shield facing etc...) and both can be killed equally easily by the borg, then they have equal tanking capabilities.

If the borg were made more or less immune to most of the science debuffs then escorts and science ships are on equal footing with science magics. (more or less immune is equal to more or less immune.)

The discrepancy between a science ships healing and an escorts healing is 600 HP for hazard emitters, about 1000 shields for transfer shield strength, and equal on aux to SIF if the science ship runs with HE3 and TSS3. Typically you can only pick one level 3 so really, your only different from escorts by about 600HP every 45 seconds. But that's only for the escorts that don't have the LtC Science. Those can actually have an equal level of healing. Also, the healing difference is minuscule compared to the damage output of NPCs. Not even worth noting. So yes, escorts can heal just as well as a science ship. And in a previous post you pretty much hit on this fact:

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Why would I bother making a support ship (healer) if everyone can heal themselves.
Thus you are left with these two ship types that bring very little to a dps race that is STO. Which by your own logic,

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
If having a cruiser around was an upgrade instead of a sidegrade it'd be considered mandatory, and that directly restricts people's choices.
makes Escorts MANDATORY. Why? Because escorts can dps better than science or cruisers. If they do something better then they are mandatory right? Thus restricting people's choices.

Need more proof of the state of the game's content:
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
To b fair the best sci vessels these days are actually the full carriers you see floating around as well as the Vesta (a ship that thinks its a HEC), and possibly the wells timeship (a sci vessel maneuverable enough to easily mount DBBs as standart and has got to be an amazing kinetic weapon delivery platform)
All of the ships you suggested have something in common. They can equip a LtC tac officer or Commander tac officer. This boosts dps, and these are the best science ships? Sounds to me that this game makes DPS mandatory, which given the state of the other two ship classes the average science ship and cruiser are not sidegrades but downgrades.

What am I not seeing? Throw some numbers out there, show me builds and playstyles that do not rely on dps to be valuable. I do not want to be required to fly an escort to pull my weight.
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