Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 161
04-08-2013, 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stardestroyer001 View Post
Tanking is pretty much sitting and watching the cube fire at you. You are still firing your weapons, but they are not doing as much damage as the escorts (granted, unless you have a fail PUG...).

If you have points in threat control, that's when tanking becomes a vital part of a team. You are drawing the aggro (and gaining the damage resistance bonus), keeping aggro away from the fragile escorts, and showing off all at the same time.
No, tanking is holding the aggro of an NPC and avoiding death by whatever means available. If you can remain alive for long periods while your team does the damage you're tanking.

This is why escorts tank so much better than cruisers. Their def. bonus (speed tanking) lets them avoid getting hit 9 out of 10 shots fired at them...and their healing abilities can easily take that 1 hit and heal it. Cruisers on the other hand take 6 out of 10 shots fired at them (10/10 if they sit) and rely on healing the damage to tank. Problem with that is, the risk to the cruiser is insanely higher than to the escort.

Biggest difference is the cruiser sacrifices its damage output to tank...where the escort can tank and still put out its full damage capability while at it.

Threat control as the skill does not function very well. Threat control 9 on a cruiser that does low damage (because its tanking) will still lose aggro to a 0 threat control, high damage escort very quickly. Only the new threat consoles and atk delta doff bonuses retain NPC hate. Heck, fact is you dont even need threat control skill ...the consoles and doff bonus is high enough on its own.

So the tank role is dead for the cruiser because the escort does it better. The science role of the science ship is dead because the escort's ridiculous damage output makes sci debuffs and crowd control obsolete (even if the sci skills did work properly they would still be a wasted slot on a team in the sense that having another escort would be better).

The devs have gone gung ho for DPS as the sole means of progressing in the game. That is typical of every PWI game as well. Why?

DPS is easier to monetize.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 337
# 162
04-08-2013, 06:33 AM
as a person that has flown all 3 categories of ships DPS is good and all but you need something to take the hits i constantly saw escorts getting poped by the tac cube when it was a full escort team on a STF we barely managed to get the optional however i flew with a pure cruiser group recently with myself in a offensively built galaxy R (build currently a work in progress but shaping up well) and we bossed everything with 7 minutes to spare on the clock and we were all cruisers with no deaths. Cruisers and sci ships are not dead their actions really only go unnoticed by the people with the big guns because the more or less zerg a enemy and pound em into the groundits the cruisers job to keep agro and patch people up and that amount of outside healing makes a huge difference and sci ship can clump enemies together and break out some serious stuff if they want to including being better at making bosses less tanky. Also btw i usually see more cruisers than escorts in social zones
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,909
# 163
04-08-2013, 06:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
This is why escorts tank so much better than cruisers. Their def. bonus (speed tanking) lets them avoid getting hit 9 out of 10 shots fired at them...and their healing abilities can easily take that 1 hit and heal it.
That isn't tanking, that's kiting and any ship can do it.
Captain Kirk is climbing a mountain. Why is he climbing a mountain? Is he learning to fly?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 442
# 164
04-08-2013, 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stardestroyer001 View Post
Tanking is pretty much sitting and watching the cube fire at you. You are still firing your weapons, but they are not doing as much damage as the escorts (granted, unless you have a fail PUG...).

if you think so, only a "god mode" button will help you tanking!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 61
# 165
04-08-2013, 07:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by valoreah View Post
That isn't tanking, that's kiting and any ship can do it.
I beg to differ, kiting is a very important "subset" of tanking and maxing out defence in a cruiser can be as beneficial to your overall tanking capability as maxing out resists/heals/dps/threat and by "tanking" I mean the ability to focus enemy fire on you and being able to survive it.

Escorts can tank but they can't tank for extended periods of time and still deal "nominal" damage at the same time. That is the difference. The problem is that in most PvE content NPCs explode before a well-built escort runs out of defensive skills.

I was on a HOSE run yesterday with 4 escorts (from the same fleet). It was incredible. The typical PUG's teamplay can be compared to a novice playing a violin for the first time, and that team's teamplay was like a world-class virtuoso playing since he was 3. Heals flying around, constant APB and NPCs almost incessantly pounding my cruiser made it the smoothest HOSE run I've ever seen. When the Queen's ship exploded I immediately got 4 friend invites . I guess they didn't expect such a "performance" from a cruiser.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,909
# 166
04-08-2013, 07:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djdamc View Post
Escorts can tank but they can't tank for extended periods of time and still deal "nominal" damage at the same time. That is the difference.
The same could be said for any ship, not just Escorts. My Science captains piloting their Science vessels can effectively tank for brief periods. They're nowhere near as good at it as my Engineers in their Cruisers who are designed for tanking.
Captain Kirk is climbing a mountain. Why is he climbing a mountain? Is he learning to fly?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,467
# 167
04-08-2013, 08:04 AM
Kiting is not tanking.

I once on my first ESTF kited the tactical cube the whole fight.

After my alpha strike, I hit evasive maneovers and then stayed 15kms away from it. The other 4 attacked it and after a time killed it, and it was still trying to get me kiting when it blew up.

Did I tank it? No. I kited it, and it took no skill.

You can try to speed tank in a cruiser too, and its damage output will not fall as badly as an escort's one.

I would not mind if speed tanking became less effective. But on the other hand, I don't want the actual health, resistance and shield stats changed on the escorts.

Of course, I would not mind if Cruisers got a doubled health and shield bonus. Maybe then the nooby players could tank with cruisers too, letting my escort concentrate on making the cube go boom.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.

Last edited by tpalelena; 04-08-2013 at 08:09 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,069
# 168
04-08-2013, 08:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
So the tank role is dead for the cruiser because the escort does it better. The science role of the science ship is dead because the escort's ridiculous damage output makes sci debuffs and crowd control obsolete (even if the sci skills did work properly they would still be a wasted slot on a team in the sense that having another escort would be better).

The devs have gone gung ho for DPS as the sole means of progressing in the game. That is typical of every PWI game as well. Why?

DPS is easier to monetize.
Couldn't agree more.

I've said it before, and will probably say it again; there isn't much use claiming that sci debuff/crowd control abilities are of use when, in practice, in a team involving two or more escorts (which is most teams) the enemy is dust before any crowd control/debuffs are either necessary or take any significant effect.

STAR TREK BATTLES - HIGH DPS PLAYERS NEED NOT APPY

Last edited by reyan01; 04-08-2013 at 08:24 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 289
# 169
04-08-2013, 08:29 AM
Try running "no win" without tanks or Sci ships. You might get to wave 5. That content cannot be ran successfuly without them. Starbase blockade cannot be done well without heals and crowd control. In fact most of the fleet missions require a Sci ship to be completed with any type of success. Only STF's perhaps dont need them as much unless on Cure someone blows a cube early and the team needs a good Sci ship to hold back the tide of raptors. In my opinion in "team" play a tank and Sci ship are a must.

But sadly in solo PVE missions you will do best in an Escourt.

The most successful Teams i have seen are 2 High DPS Escourts, 1 big tank Cruiser with high threat level and 2 Sci ships with holds and repels to direct traffic and buff/heal the escourts.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,691
# 170
04-08-2013, 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozy83 View Post

Instead of nerfing escorts, lets advocate a change in how the game recognises success. DPS isnt everything, this should also be reflected in the number of times an escort blows up. Give them the incentive not to die. Die = less reward.
I don't think you've considered this through very well. If escorts are penalized by blowing up how would that incentivize cruiser or sci play? If anything it would incentivize everyone to fly with -TH consoles and do as little damage as possible! What a backwards mess that would be! Furthermore how would it make it worth a cruiser or sci's time to heal or support anyone else, and that is crtitical since most of those ship's extra abilities are in support of a group. No, had you thought this through you would've realized what you really want is for healing and maybe damage taken to be counted instead of just damage. But, I thought that was the case already? I'm pretty sure healing done was counted for scoring purposes?

But hey! Thankfully the game is built in such a way that what I would consider a fail cruiser is still able to help towards a team's goal without being totally irrelevant right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorceror01 View Post
....you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
However, I think with regard to the Romulan Republic player characters/npcs, it all comes down to a finite point:

These are not the Romulans from the shows.
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