Lt. Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 109
# 21
04-18-2013, 08:04 PM
My first thought was that Remans were indigenous as well, but they do seem to have enough in common with Romulans that they could be from the same stock. Radiation exposure, either on the trip from Vulcan to Romulus or after planetfall, may have caused them to mutate into Remans at an accelerated rate.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,265
# 22
04-18-2013, 08:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by erikmodi View Post
My first thought was that Remans were indigenous as well, but they do seem to have enough in common with Romulans that they could be from the same stock. Radiation exposure, either on the trip from Vulcan to Romulus or after planetfall, may have caused them to mutate into Remans at an accelerated rate.
In a universe where traveling at warp 10 can mutate you into a giant salamander, anything's possible.
"It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
-- Q
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,737
# 23
04-18-2013, 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by erikmodi View Post
My first thought was that Remans were indigenous as well, but they do seem to have enough in common with Romulans that they could be from the same stock. Radiation exposure, either on the trip from Vulcan to Romulus or after planetfall, may have caused them to mutate into Remans at an accelerated rate.
In Duane's novels, ch'Havran was seen as a less worthwhile world than ch'Rihan, and the lesser Shipclans were sent there. It's quite plausible, I think, that in the millennia between planetfall and the events of Nemesucks - er, pardon me, Nemesis, the Travelers who went there mutated into the twisted parodies of the original stock we call Havrannsu, or Remans. Conservation of these mutations would be enhanced by the fact that no proper Rihannsu family would let a child marry into a Havrannsu clan.

Oh, and while the sociologist was waxing poetic, the examples given of mnhei'sahe are explicable in human terms. You might give your last sip of water to your deadliest enemy, for instance, because you are the one who is privileged to end them. Letting them die of thirst would be cheap. And anyone who's been faced with the question of when to pull the plug knows what it is to kill someone out of love.
-------------------------------------------
I'm old enough not to care too much about what you think of me --
But I'm young enough to remember the future, the way things ought to be...

- Rush, "Cut To the Chase", Counterparts
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 109
# 24
04-19-2013, 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsills View Post
In Duane's novels, ch'Havran was seen as a less worthwhile world than ch'Rihan, and the lesser Shipclans were sent there. It's quite plausible, I think, that in the millennia between planetfall and the events of Nemesucks - er, pardon me, Nemesis, the Travelers who went there mutated into the twisted parodies of the original stock we call Havrannsu, or Remans. Conservation of these mutations would be enhanced by the fact that no proper Rihannsu family would let a child marry into a Havrannsu clan.
Eh, not precisely. In Diane Duane's books, ch'Havran was just as viable a world as ch'Rihan, though smaller, because it was essentially a moon. When it came time for the ships' compliments to choose where to live, no logical method could be agreed upon by all, so they resorted to a lottery. An entire ship's compliment could enter the lottery as one block, or family and clan groups scattered across many ships could join as one block, to ensure that the family were all placed in the same area. Many of the more traditional, Vulcan-oriented houses ended up on ch'Havran, while the more revolutionary, secessionist houses were selected to live on ch'Rihan. ch'Rihan means "of the Declared," while ch'Havran is "of the Travelers," so it was deemed appropriate that those who looked more to the journey then to its end wound up on the planet "of the Travellers." It is also worth noting that several "troublemaker" groups ended up on ch'Havran's eastern continent, the more barren and resource-poor plot of land available. There is speculation that the lottery was rigged, and that those "less desirable" elements were deliberately placed in areas where they could be marginalized and ignored. "Eastern ch'Havran" Romulans are responsible for many of the more heinous acts in the history of the Romulan Empire.

Now, filtering this through the Nemesis lens, we learn that, perhaps, many of the more psionically adept Travelers chose to go into the lottery together, to all land together wherever the lottery put them. The lottery, rigged or not, placed them on the dark side of ch'Havran (it should be noted that, if it is true that one side of ch'Havran is always dark, it means that it is tidally locked with the Romulan sun, not ch'Rihan. . . an astronomical impossibility.) Adapting to the land of eternal night they were marooned in, they evolved into a distinct subspecies of Vulcanoid. As they grew more and more different from baseline Rihannsu, they were increasingly marginalized, eventually becoming a slave race. Of course, a race will stay enslaved only so long before they begin to violently seek freedom. . .

Last edited by erikmodi; 04-19-2013 at 08:59 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 109
# 25
04-19-2013, 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsills View Post
Oh, and while the sociologist was waxing poetic, the examples given of mnhei'sahe are explicable in human terms. You might give your last sip of water to your deadliest enemy, for instance, because you are the one who is privileged to end them. Letting them die of thirst would be cheap. And anyone who's been faced with the question of when to pull the plug knows what it is to kill someone out of love.
Yes and no. The examples are valid, but are explained more in human motivation that Rihannsu. Giving your last drop of water to an enemy dying of thirst is less about you having the privilege of ending them, and more to do with simple death being an insufficient punishment. Likewise, killing a loved one has less to do with mercy, in the human sense. For instance, in My Enemy, My Ally, Ael's son attempts to take the Enterprise for real during their mission. Barely surviving the attempt, mnhei'sahe requires Ael to take her son's life as punishment for breaking his word to her and the crew of the Enterprise, for working treachery against all of them. There is an element of a type of mercy, allowing him to die with whatever honor he still has intact, but it was not done to end physical suffering.

Of course, the concept that "mnhei'sahe is incomprehensible to humans" is flawed, since it was created by a human. But sufficiently different from most human ethics that most humans encountering it think "Well, that's messed up!"? Certainly.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,737
# 26
04-19-2013, 09:39 AM
I dunno, I think Ael's permitting her son to die with some shred of his honor intact was pretty explicable. And of course she had to handle it herself - as Heinlein put it, when your dog has to be put down, you shouldn't farm the job out to someone else; they might muff it. She had to make sure he died right. Such were the demands of her mnhei'sahe. Of course, another Rihannsu might have seen it differently - it's not as clear-cut as Klingon honor, or bushido.
-------------------------------------------
I'm old enough not to care too much about what you think of me --
But I'm young enough to remember the future, the way things ought to be...

- Rush, "Cut To the Chase", Counterparts
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,265
# 27
04-19-2013, 09:50 AM
According to a star chart in Nemesis, Romulus and Remus have their own separate orbits around their homestar. So Remus is tidally locked to the star, but not to Romulus.
"It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
-- Q
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 109
# 28
04-19-2013, 08:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsills View Post
I dunno, I think Ael's permitting her son to die with some shred of his honor intact was pretty explicable. And of course she had to handle it herself - as Heinlein put it, when your dog has to be put down, you shouldn't farm the job out to someone else; they might muff it. She had to make sure he died right. Such were the demands of her mnhei'sahe. Of course, another Rihannsu might have seen it differently - it's not as clear-cut as Klingon honor, or bushido.
Indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
According to a star chart in Nemesis, Romulus and Remus have their own separate orbits around their homestar. So Remus is tidally locked to the star, but not to Romulus.
All of the other material has shown Remus to be a satellite of Romulus, like Earth and the Moon. Even so, being tidally locked to a body like sun only occurs (in known astronomy) to bodies so close the sun that they are uninhabitable.

And I've found probably the best Rihannsu language site ever:

http://www.freewebs.com/csdr/index.htm
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,265
# 29
04-19-2013, 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by erikmodi View Post
All of the other material has shown Remus to be a satellite of Romulus, like Earth and the Moon.
Well, I'm afraid that material is outdated. As awesome as those books probably are, when it comes to hard canon the movies and episodes trump all.

Romulus and Remus are sister planets in much the same way that Earth and Venus are: one is temperate, the other is hellish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erikmodi View Post
Even so, being tidally locked to a body like sun only occurs (in known astronomy) to bodies so close the sun that they are uninhabitable.
Maybe it's just a coincidence that Remus's rotational velocity matches its orbital velocity. I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erikmodi View Post
And I've found probably the best Rihannsu language site ever:

http://www.freewebs.com/csdr/index.htm
Awesome. I'll check it out tomorrow.
"It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
-- Q

Last edited by psycoticvulcan; 04-20-2013 at 08:02 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 105
# 30
04-19-2013, 10:24 PM
Just like to say thank you for this informative thread rereading Rihannsu The Bloodwing voyages now- and barring some of nemesis and all of JJs atrocity -The Rihannsu can be worked in quite well. Looking foward to may!
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