Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 540
# 341
04-22-2013, 01:48 PM
You realize there's many more original designs coming, not just warbirds?

Be patient.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 197
# 342
04-22-2013, 01:49 PM
How is the Dhael Warbird? Only ship that looks decent imho
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,914
# 343
04-22-2013, 02:00 PM
without a filled out skill tree, and a fully geared ship at level 50 with live pvp testing, we arent going to be able to give feedback on the magnitude of the singularity skill effects that is entirely accurate. at current they are better then not having them, thats about all i can say really.
______________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
I just wanted to say, I've never seen a more disturbing avatar
the pvp build and help thread
gateway links(should actually work now) -->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,068
# 344
04-22-2013, 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by archoncryptic View Post
Yes, the Tachyokinetic Converter will get the same buff. I think I'm getting a little too far off-topic here, though, so I'm going to leave further discussion of turn rate consoles and such to other threads.
First of all, thank you for answering that.

Still, that is somewhat relevant to the discussion of turn with the Rom birds, eh? Not that many posts back, somebody said the Mogai turns like a brick.

For my guy:

@32/25 Eng Power - it's got a Turn of 17.5
@99/100 Eng Power - it's got a Turn of 24.9

That's with no RCS consoles. If I add one (Blue Mk VI +22.5%):

@32/25 Eng Power - it's got a Turn of 20.0
@99/100 Eng Power - it's got a Turn of 27.4

That's with no points in Impulse Thrusters, no points in Engine Performance, an Impulse instead of a Hyper-Impulse Engine, not while cloaked, not using Attack Pattern Omega, not using Attack Pattern Alpha, not using Evasive Maneuvers, not using Emergency Power to Engines, only level 30, Mk VI gear, etc, etc, etc.

As dalnar's mentioned a couple (a few? heh, several? in multiple threads) times, one of the reasons for the DHC's increased damage is because of its limited arc. That 45 arc should provide a challenge and those that meet that challenge are rewarded with the greater damage the DHCs can provide.

What should that base be? What should the turn be for a ship without any effort outside of the most basic gearing, eh? If a person wants to turn better, shouldn't it be a case of making that investment in turning better? Skills, gear, abilities?

And it's not just that either, is it? Chroniton torps/mines, tractor beams, tractor mines, warp plasma, theta, targeting engine subsystem, viral matrix, grav wells, etc, etc, etc. There are other things that can be done to reduce the movement of a target (whether in PvE or PvP) for a ship that might not be able to turn like a top, no?

It's a MMO - endgame content is pretty much team content. So with the combination of what the person wanting to turn zippitydoodah can bring and what somebody else on the team can bring to make targets move like a slug...what kind of turn is actually needed?

Here's some turn stats on my other guys (ordered by ascending base turn and then alphabetically)...

Mirror Vo'Quv @ 33/25 Eng (no RCS/Tachyo - Hyper Mk XII [Aux][Spd][Turn] - 6 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 5.0
1/4 Imp - 6.5
APO - 8.7
APA - 8.8
EM - 13.0

Mirror Star @ 50/25 Eng (no RCS/Tachyo - Jem Mk XI Engine - 9 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 7.0
1/4 Imp - 11.4
EPS - 12.6
EM - 29.1
EPS+EM - 32.1

Mirror Vor'cha @ 55/25 Eng (no RCS/Tachyo - Jem Mk XI Engine - 9 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 10.0
1/4 Imp - 18.0
EPS - 20.2
EM - 50.0
EPS+EM - 54.4

Chel Grett @ 54/24 Eng (Tachyo - Aegis Engine - 9 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 13.0
1/4 Imp - 25.6
EPS - 29.1
APO - 41.2
EM - 71.2
EPS+EM - 78.1

JHEC @ 50/30 Eng (Tachyo - Aegis Engine - 9 SIT/3 SEP)
Base - 13.0
1/4 Imp - 25.1
EPS - 28.4
FMG - 29.1
APO - 35.7
EM - 69.3
EPS+EM - 76.3

Mirror Deep @ 43/25 Eng (RCS Mk XI - Jem Mk XI Engine - 6 SIT/3 SEP)
Base - 13.0
1/4 Imp - 26.1
EM - 67.4

Mirror Advanced @ 47/25 Eng (no RCS/Tachyo - Jem Mk XI Engine - 9 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 16.0
1/4 Imp - 29.7
APA - 44.5
APO - 48.8
EM - 85.7

Hegh'ta @ 50/25 (RCS Mk XI - Breen Mk XI Engine - 6 SIT/6 SEP)
Base - 21.0
1/4 Imp - 44.1
EM - 124.0


Some will notice how I listed the buffs, only combining certain buffs. That's because certain buffs override (do not stack) other buffs. If you APA, then APO - the APO overrides the APA buff - then EM - it overrides the APO buff...as far as the turn is concerned. It's about buff cycling/management.

Some may have noticed the numbers appear off here and there. Look at the two Tacs, eh? One gets a better boost out of APA than APO while the other gets a better boost out of APO than APA?

Mirror Vo'Quv (84 Attack Patterns - APA3 +113.6% - APO1 +110.3%)
Mirror Advanced (84 Attack Patterns - APA3 +113.6% - APO1 +146.9%)

What's the APO1 for the other two guys with it?

Chel Grett (84 Attack Patterns - APO1 +155.3%)
JHEC (0 Attack Patterns - APO1 +106.0%)

It's not just the Attack Patterns that buffs the APO buff - it's also Engine Power (with DR, mind you). It's something folks might not consider while building their toons or playing. You could have two guys with the exact same builds outside of points spent in Warp Core Efficiency/Potential - and - the guy with the lower Engine Power is going to get less of a buff from their APO. It's something to keep in mind with the -10 Engine Power that the Warbirds are getting too...

...which is where it does kind of stay on topic, imho, even though it kind of goes all over the place. These ships aren't a separate game. Determining their turn rates (including whatever changes are made to other gear/mechanics) - is still going to be part of STO - affect the rest of STO. Trying to get the Warbirds to a certain point will affect where the current ships already are.

Which goes back to the question - what effort should be involved for somebody to keep those DHCs on target? What effort from the individual and what effort from the team? What should be the base? Look at my Hegh'ta up there, eh? That 1/4 Impulse vs. what some of the other guys need APO to get near. Then the number for the EM? Wheeeeeeeeee!

It's like the changes that were made to the Subterfuge BOFFs - where it was realized that the % instead of a flat bonus could provide some whacky scaling issues. The same has been an issue with Turn. All those Cruiser guys complaining about the Escort guys...

...so when somebody says that something turns like a brick that you don't believe should be turning like a brick, ask them what their build is - what their Eng Power is at - what abilities they're using...so it doesn't turn like a brick. If it's something that should turn like a brick but it is turning more like a stack of bricks - again, what is the person doing? Then adjustments can be made, no?

There are so many variables involved with so many of the elements in STO. Some are trying to do everything they can to make something happen - and - it's just not happening. Some just expect everything to happen at a baseline and not have to do anything. It seems that Cryptic has been fostering more to the latter crowd in the past year or so than the former. I get it, casual players - more revenue - it keeps the game around and that's a good thing. Still though...one does continue to hope for a little more balance...
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba

Last edited by virusdancer; 04-22-2013 at 02:11 PM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 417
# 345
04-22-2013, 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecosmic1 View Post
The OP is disgruntled to learn that the Roms only start with 1 free ship per Tier. I understand that sentiment, but the Roms are a micro-faction test bed. The Rom ships are very cool, and more versatile then Fed or KDF ships - the Singularity Cores are nice.

Plus STO has changed a lot over the years. The goal of STO now is to get players at end-game as quickly as possible. Thus there's not a lot of need to have many ship choices at each Tier now. You can go from 1 to 50 in less then 20 /played hour now due to the amount of XP you earn while playing.

More ship choices per Tier aren't going to make the leveling experience that much more enjoyable, primarily because Warbirds are more unique and because you're not going to be in any particular ship all that long. Just look at the playtest. There are people at level 20 just from the first couple of days of playing.
I'm alright with it though i wish there were some remen designed ships not just skins, though I'm looking forward to them. But honestly what disappointing me the most about warbirds is the lack of variants. To let me customize my ship to be fairly unique.

But that's my only grip about my mogai turns fast and dishes some lovely damage , can't wait fly other ships or hopefully get a hold of a scimitar.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,068
# 346
04-22-2013, 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper0 View Post
But honestly what disappointing me the most about warbirds is the lack of variants. To let me customize my ship to be fairly unique.
Have to keep in mind the ships we see in the vendor are placeholders for some of the variants. Based on the blogs - it looks like there will be additional kitbash pieces available from the Refits and Retrofits. Add in the skin from the Fleet version...there should be additional options if one has the Refit/Retrofit/Fleet to customize their ship in comparison to what others are flying...er...I hope.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 445
# 347
04-22-2013, 04:09 PM
Turn-Rate issue:
Perhaps consider the Odyssey/Bortas console set bonus too?
Additionally, perhaps an "inertia" value bonus could be implemented along with that? I mind slow turn rate much less than skidding. >_>

Back to topic:
I don't test on Tribble as of yet, but I'm noticed from what clips have been uploaded to Youtube the way the singularity cores have been performing.

One change I'm surprised doesn't seem to have been considered with the singularity mechanic would be to make it more granular. After all... don't you have five 'ticks' to fill? Respective powers tied to the singularity cores could perhaps only consume part of the meter rather than all of it. That way, you get more mileage out of something like Plasma shockwave, faster, and might be able to pull off more than one in a row if you had accumulated a charge (as in, it'd consume 20% of the gauge and have it's full effectiveness).

* * *

Another point I noticed was how more-involved battles tended to only last long enough to creep up to around 40% of the gauge, only to see it end with the accumulated energy unused and then largely petter out by the time the warbird closed in on other targets. Couldn't it be envisioned that the charge could stay?

As I see it, people have a tendency to try to hoard things which aren't complete, rather than go for a half-assed effect... which is probably why you don't end up seeing players use their core abilities around 20-30-40%. And if they do, they aren't impressed. Contributing to that is how it doesn't carry over from fight to fight even if you did save it, since it goes down at a quick clip.

Considering that, and the present theme that the singularity core builds up a charge when the ship is at 'high activity'... maybe it'd be a good idea to have the Romulan cloak contribute to also build up the charge? That way, a warbird could at least cloak between fights and preserve said stored energy... and maybe even build it up some too (cloaking takes a lot of power, so, it fits the theme). On top of that, it adds the great benefit (IMHO) to emphasizing the importance and value of cloaking for the Romulan Warbirds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 190
# 348
04-22-2013, 04:55 PM
The singularity core damage attack is .... (I liked it)

Boff layout on the first Bird of prey could be all Universal stations **or at least 2/3?



2nd ship we get.

Turn rate could be increased by 1% to 10%? (had a turn rate of 3 degrees a sec. felt slow)

Boff layout change 1 sci slot to a universal ensign slot...?



The flashing for fully charged core maybe decrease frequency it flashes?
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 445
# 349
04-22-2013, 05:36 PM
Ships turn at 3 only when they're not in motion, or when their movement stats are being looked at while you're on the ground. The Dhelan is actually supposed to be pretty nimble.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 474
# 350
04-22-2013, 06:43 PM
is there going to be a dedicated sci focused ship in the middle and high tiers? or we don't know yet?
look for me in game as "Admiral Quinn" yeah that admiral quinn..and while your at it get off muh station!!!
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