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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 36
# 21
04-22-2013, 01:25 PM
What if the Galaxy got a "flight deck" but it could only launch shuttles? This makes sense with all ships that can have boarding party as a special ability. A galaxy already has 4/4 weapons, it doesn't need the DPS of true fighters, but shuttles as "point defense" and anti-fighters would be useful. OP? IDK...
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 22
04-22-2013, 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by exile688 View Post
What if the Galaxy got a "flight deck" but it could only launch shuttles? This makes sense with all ships that can have boarding party as a special ability. A galaxy already has 4/4 weapons, it doesn't need the DPS of true fighters, but shuttles as "point defense" and anti-fighters would be useful. OP? IDK...
It would give the Type 10s a purpose as being the only thing you can fit on a Galaxy-X, and hey, something is better than nothing.
Joined September 2011
Nouveau riche LTS member
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 35
# 23
04-22-2013, 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
For the second time in this thread: the Akira class is an in-universe carrier. It is described as being capable of fielding more than 60 craft (40+ combat vessels, 20+ support and auxiliary craft) yet it can only field a maximum of 6 ingame. It's internal structure (specifically it's saucer section) is build primarily to hold, service and launch those craft. Unlike the Galaxy's interior, which is built primarily for multi-purpose research and exploration. Saying "well the Galaxy is bigger, so it should hold more ships" is very, very incorrect.

On top of that, based on shown dimensions of several of the Galaxy's shuttle bays, ships like Runabouts or Peregrines wouldn't even fit.



The runabouts that accompanied the Oddysey were not carried by that ship. They launched from, and returned to, a completely separate base of operations (DS9).

The only ships that have carrier bays (with the exception of the Vesta, because it's a bizzaro ship built solely to generate money from C-Store purchases) are those that realistically could field large numbers of craft.
I figured someone would make that argument based on what I put but I didn't feel like taking the time to do the images personally for it. I still don't wish to do the images myself I was in hopes you would of looked at all the info in the links. I do understand not wanting to read that and just dismiss it as it's a lot of stuff to read.

To directly address your comments this if fairly easy. I generally ignore anything that was not on the show themselves as you tend to drift into soft cannon and the designers said most of the time never saw day light on the show. So without farther ado.

You are right if they could keep the scale of the Akira class right in the show and movies to it's largest size it could easily do this. At it's smallest it's a little bit larger then the defiant class ,that is also to the wrong scale in this game.
Examples and reasoning follow:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...akira-size.htm

As they show , at it's largest(464.43m) it could do the carrier role , at it's smallest(262.13m) it would be as cramped as the defiant class(120m) is as it tried to fit a massive hanger bay in something smaller then an Intrepid class(344.1m). To carry lets say 40 type 9 shuttles , the smallest ship I can find the scale of quickly , lets say 2 meters high and 8.5m long. They could still easily fit that in the smallest version of the ship along with many more if it's more then one deck to the shuttle bay itself. Still leaving room for Defiant style crew quarters in the ship. Still all of that leaves massive room for error in just how many that ship could hold at best , but no question even at it's smallest scale it could carry a number of craft.
Sources:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...size_table.htm
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sc...t_shuttles.htm
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/24/43...c10b62b1_o.jpg
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...-sovereign.jpg

With that said , it was never a question if an Akira class ship could do it even if we follow the smallest scale for the ship. The question was if the Galaxy class could even do a part of that. Now to go back to the link that clearly was not read , they clearly state "It was also sufficiently large enough to house three Danube-class runabouts." (DS9: "Emissary")
To go along with that the episode "Timescape" (TNG, Episode 6x25) Captain Picard seems to think he can land the runabout he's returning in somewhere on the ship. It's of course destroyed but they were clearly not just going to leave it sitting there where they?
Sources:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Timescape_%28episode%29
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Runa...e_Enterprise-D
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Main_shuttlebay

With that said , they never built or even tried to show a full sized shuttle bay on the Galaxy class in the show for the simple reason it would of been very expensive to try and show something like that at the time.
Sources:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Main_shuttlebay

Now about the Odyssey , you are very right they were not launched from the ship itself, that being said , you can't really rely on view from that episode on the size of the runabouts as "forced perspective" tends to happen a lot in Star Trek sadly. That being said there is still a decent view of runabouts beside a galaxy. As I stated tho , forced perspective , either they are very large and inside the Odyssey's shields or they are not as close as they appear.
http://youtu.be/Dyttwwrbdyk?t=38s
But we know that the danube class was 23m only a mere 2m longer then the Delta Flyer's 21m. So it must be forced perspective as we know the Delta Flyer could easily fit in an Intrepid along with a shuttle(Type 9). Not where they were storing it but it was there, as at was crashed a number of times if not replaced with another.
Sources:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sc...eet_ships1.htm
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sc...t_shuttles.htm
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...delta-size.htm
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/in...encies-voy.htm

Now I'm not sure if any of you will really read all of this , most likely not. Like I said it's a lot of info to keep up with so I have decided after finding all of this and typing it up to make some quick images to show easy it could be for a galaxy class at lest part of the job an akira was designed for. The images show the Galaxy msd and ship scales image with the akira at it's largest size.

Now to go over this quickly , like I said this shows the Akira at it's largest know size , now keeping it the scale for everything we scale down the galaxy's msd to cover the galaxy class to get it to scale to show the shuttle bays. Then we place the scaled msd beside the akira then over lap the shuttle bay. This being shown unless the Akria has no warp core or engineering sections it's little more then a flying shuttle bay at it's largest scale and this would be correct as that's what it is suppose to be, how ever if the scale is indeed wrong and it's suppose to be 262.13m , not only could the galaxy class do the same job, it could do it better. It still looks , not counting the other shuttle bays in the Galaxy class that it , perhaps with a little modification (I mean by sto's stardate the galaxy has been refited and retrofited a few times now) it could not only do the standard akria's job but much more.
http://imgur.com/a/HT0tn

At this point I'm not completely sure how to sum this up properly but I'm not trying to mislead anyone here I am giving you all the same info that is in front of me and that I could find easily. It is clear that a galaxy class could do the same things as an akira class basing it upon scale of the shuttle bay compared just to the size of the akira. It may take slightly refitting the bay's themselves to do it but it could easily be done based on the info given. That being said it tends to fall into the realm of jack of all trades for the galaxy class , it could do almost everything , it just wasn't very good at all the stuff it could do. The akira built to be a carrier would very well do it better and have crew trained for just that then we jump to STO's armitage where it's even larger (read that as able to hold more crew and supplies/ships) and there is no question it's a full warship and carrier designed for just that and would easily out perform both the akira and a galaxy setup to do this. As I have stated a few times now tho ,this is all based the ships themselves not limited to this game. In this game everything is very limited and stuck to the "RPG MMO" ideas and not the trek or trek books. So the best way I can think of summing this up right now, there is no question a galaxy class could be a carrier ship , there is no question that a nebula class could either. They would not excel at it but they could , like a modern USN LHD compared to a CVN , they could do the same job they just won't excel.

EDIT: This still does not count shuttle bay 2 and 3 upon the Galaxy class ,that were both shown to be at lest the size of the Intrepid class' main bay , if not larger. Also to point out the number of craft that were kept and clearly not jammed in there.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Shuttlebay_2
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Shuttlebay_3
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hang...nterprise-D%29
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hangar_2
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hangar_3
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hangar_4
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hangar_5
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Shuttlebay
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hangar

TL;DR,
Galaxy class was and is jack-of-all-trades ship that could do everything but never excel at it unless it's the main ship of a show. But for this game it should not be and couldn't not be what is being asked of it for gameplay reasons and limits. Also this was never to say the Akira class couldn't do it's role , it's to show others could do part of the Akira's role as well. In a time of war you wouldn't limit a ship that could do more when you could use it.

Last edited by revan999; 04-22-2013 at 04:31 PM. Reason: More info about other bays and hangars. Clearification.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 24
04-22-2013, 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by revan999 View Post
<snip>
1) You don't get to cherry pick the size of a ship to suit your own whims. There's a described series of dimensions from soft canon and novel sources for the Akira class that corresponds to multiple appearances of said ship on-screen. It's in the mid 400-m range. Arguing that it's smaller than a Saber class is ludicrous, and you know it.

2) You say you ignore anything that's not shown on-screen, yet you're arguing that there's a magical uber-shuttle bay on a Galaxy that was never shown. Hypocrisy much?

3) It's not a matter of whether one ship's volume can fit inside another ship's volume. It's a matter of whether one ship has the facilities to house, service and launch another ship, and accompanying additional craft in a combat-ready capacity. The Galaxy class simply does not have the capacity to field anything beyond (at best) a token force of auxiliary shuttles.

That is (one of the many reasons) why it's not a flight deck cruiser.


Quote:
Originally Posted by revan999 View Post
At this point I'm not completely sure how to sum this up properly but I'm not trying to mislead anyone here I am giving you all the same info that is in front of me and that I could find easily. It is clear that a galaxy class could do the same things as an akira class basing it upon scale of the shuttle bay compared just to the size of the akira. It may take slightly refitting the bay's themselves to do it but it could easily be done based on the info given. That being said it tends to fall into the realm of jack of all trades for the galaxy class , it could do almost everything , it just wasn't very good at all the stuff it could do. The akira built to be a carrier would very well do it better and have crew trained for just that then we jump to STO's armitage where it's even larger (read that as able to hold more crew and supplies/ships) and there is no question it's a full warship and carrier designed for just that and would easily out perform both the akira and a galaxy setup to do this. As I have stated a few times now tho ,this is all based the ships themselves not limited to this game. In this game everything is very limited and stuck to the "RPG MMO" ideas and not the trek or trek books. So the best way I can think of summing this up right now, there is no question a galaxy class could be a carrier ship , there is no question that a nebula class could either. They would not excel at it but they could , like a modern USN LHD compared to a CVN , they could do the same job they just won't excel.
I'm going to make this as succinct and direct as I can:

The Galaxy is a ship built for multipurpose scientific research and exploration, while maintaining enough firepower to adequately defend itself from just about anything that could cross it's path. It is not a carrier. It is not designed to carry combat craft into battle, recover them, repair them or refit them on the fly.

Arguing that the Galaxy should magically be able to do that for no better reason than it's larger than a purpose built combat carrier is pure crap. It simply doesn't have the facilities to do so.

Your little overlay is amusing, but horribly inaccurate. You're easily ignoring about 60% of the saucer's volume. Not that that really plays into the equation, since only about 1/3 of the overlay you're claiming as hangar space is actually hangar space in a Galaxy. But that's neither here nor there.

TL;DR,

The "jack of all trades" role doesn't miraculously change the internal configuration of a ship that doesn't have the space to carry a meaningful combat squadron into a "lets throw everything I want into a ship and let me fly it" setup. The Galaxy can do a lot of things. Serving as a dedicated combat carrier is not at all one of them.

Want to fly an enormous ship that has a fighter complement? Get an Atrox or Vo'Quv. Want a Flight Deck Cruiser? Get a Corsair or Marauder.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 233
# 25
04-22-2013, 07:08 PM
just want to point out the Enterprise delivered the runabouts to DS9 in Emisarry so they fit
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 35
# 26
04-22-2013, 07:41 PM
I'm a bit confused by you , I agree with you and you go to argue with me?

It shows with images captured from the show the size and the number of held of craft along with the size of the craft. As I said every time before. Doesn't change the info from the links I gave. That being said the info came from memory alpha's (with screen caps of the show) and ex-astris-scientia's sites. At lest you looked at some of the pretty pictures. I didn't say it should carry fighters either. I believe I was talking about shuttles and support craft , lots of them. I also did not ignore the insides of the akira but there is no canon msd I can use from the shows for it, but it would need decks for engineering , and crew rooms. Even if the rooms are defiant style and packed on top of each other , the amount of crew needed for both servicing the craft and ship along with the pilots and main crew of such a ship would take up far more room then you seem to be willing to give it unless starfleet has come up with some magical way to store that many people and their items. I base this on the simple fact that even a modern naval carrier is only 40% flight deck and hangers as the rest of the ship has to be given to the ship itself. There is just no way possible that then entire part of the akira you are calling a flight deck and hanger can be. The saucer of the akira the way that ship is shown has to hold not only that flight deck but the hangers for the ships, the crew areas , the pilots of said ships , the engineering section as it clearly wouldn't sit in the weapons pod , along with warp core and impulse engines and storage for said areas. That is easily 60% of the ship you say I'm not accounting for. That said we could fit a number of the crew areas and such into the pylons leading to the weapons pods and warp nacelles.

That being said you can look up any number of fan designs you want as well , people who have spent a lot of time on this. What is being suggested that the entire saucer section of that ship is one large hanger bay and flight deck, where the do you put the crew? Much less the other things.

Farther more , I didn't "nit pick" the size , I pointed out that in both sizes that the ship could what it was designed for. I'm just saying that in it's largest size it still seems rather small for a ship designed for the rule of a carrier ship but could do it decently. In it's smallest size shown it would be less effective then that of a large cruiser. Like I pointed out , I'm not making this info up , I'm showing you where I am getting it from and it shows the galaxy having 5 hangar bays and 3 shuttle bays (flight decks) from screencaps of TNG itself. The akira is never shown to be a carrier or torpedo boat in the show despite what is said and if it was , based on the scales of the ships and shuttles it would need to be a pure warship like the defiant. That's fine but to say the entire saucer is hangars and shuttle bays seems to not take into account all the room needed for everything else.

So you know I do own the Atrox kitty carrier , a Vo'Quv, a Heavy escort carrier , Jem'Hadar Escort carrier , and to top it off the Marauder Flight Deck cruiser as my Orion has to have an Orion ship of course. Most of them used on Engineers as they tend to support very well or while doing other things damage is more important so switch from atrox to HEC.

To make this short so TL;DR,

I agree , the galaxy classes should not be a carrier in this game. I do not own any version of the Galaxy in game. It might need something to help balance it out with all the newer ships easily able to do the same thing (tank) just as well(Odyssey class). That doesn't change the fact that no one seems to understand the scale of not only ships but people and items in Star Trek. This game also has the scales of the ships compared to each other are wrong.

Last edited by revan999; 04-22-2013 at 07:47 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 35
# 27
04-22-2013, 07:48 PM
I know spork87, I pointed that out to him. He seems to be a bit argumentative for some reason even when given info from the show. Every post I put on here saying things like this I've given links to memory alpha showing I got this info from the tv shows. :\

http://en.memory-alpha.org
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