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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,224
# 81
04-24-2013, 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
What is this "UGC" you speak of?
http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=874611

The latest podcast is 4 hours, 20 minutes, and 19 seconds long...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 82
04-24-2013, 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
If one does not care about where they are on the map while making the turn, then obviously the time to make that turn will be constant. However, since most people are actually trying to make the turn in regard to other objects on the map - the turn radius becomes important.

Step outside your front door. Turn 1 degree every minute. Three hours later, you'll be facing your door.

Step outside your front door. Turn 1 degree every minute while stepping forward a foot. Three hours later, yeah...that's not your front door.

The target is to my left. I want to face the target. Do I adjust my throttle, use various abilities...or do I just full throttle and figure I'll get there eventually?
Indeed, but to turn even with the throttle at 1/4 instead of half or full is still rather painful in a cruiser/carrier. A bit less so in a carrier simply because they have fighters chasing things down while they get themselves about... like an old person with a walker sending the grand children ahead and "I'll catch up with you in a minute." And no ship should have to use their evasive maneuvers skill just to turn around. Though I think the changes they are making to turn modifying consoles, engines, and skills will remedy all my complaints on that front. Like I said, I don't really have much of a problem with the scale of turn rates from the slowest turner to the fastest, just the minimum value was far too low. Seems they are bumping the whole scale up a few notches, and that works for me. If they weren't making these changes, if they would simply introduce another skill "bring us about" or something that just buffed turn rate and not defense and move speed like evasive maneuvers, that would be an acceptable compromise that would allow a cruiser to largely maneuver slowly, but quickly turn around on occasion without burning a skill intended for 'evasion." But, like I said, I'm confident that them removing the -3 to turn rate before a modification was calculated will fix things... and moreover correct lying tool tips. RCS says "+35% turn rate," not "+35% of base turn rate -3" Console's been lying to us for years. -.-
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 83
04-24-2013, 08:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=874611

The latest podcast is 4 hours, 20 minutes, and 19 seconds long...
Oh, yeah, I usually don't bother with these "interview" thingies as in the past I didn't feel they usually gave that much info... usually it feels like nothing already unknown is being revealed and all the goods are still hush hush and whatnot... well I guess I'll see if this one has info worth listening to.

Oooooh... I like the music toward the start, wonder what that is, lol.

Also... I wonder what UGC stands for, I don't see it on the site.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,078
# 84
04-24-2013, 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
Indeed, but to turn even with the throttle at 1/4 instead of half or full is still rather painful in a cruiser/carrier. A bit less so in a carrier simply because they have fighters chasing things down while they get themselves about... like an old person with a walker sending the grand children ahead and "I'll catch up with you in a minute." And no ship should have to use their evasive maneuvers skill just to turn around. Though I think the changes they are making to turn modifying consoles, engines, and skills will remedy all my complaints on that front. Like I said, I don't really have much of a problem with the scale of turn rates from the slowest turner to the fastest, just the minimum value was far too low. Seems they are bumping the whole scale up a few notches, and that works for me. If they weren't making these changes, if they would simply introduce another skill "bring us about" or something that just buffed turn rate and not defense and move speed like evasive maneuvers, that would be an acceptable compromise that would allow a cruiser to largely maneuver slowly, but quickly turn around on occasion without burning a skill intended for 'evasion." But, like I said, I'm confident that them removing the -3 to turn rate before a modification was calculated will fix things... and moreover correct lying tool tips. RCS says "+35% turn rate," not "+35% of base turn rate -3" Console's been lying to us for years. -.-

it's really painful when you are attacking a target then some one with tractor repulser comes by and pushes them 12km BEHIND YOU. you then have to go through the grueling process of not just turning around but also getting there by that time it will most likely be destroyed so then you have to try and lug around to another target
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 85
04-24-2013, 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpgtx View Post
it's really painful when you are attacking a target then some one with tractor repulser comes by and pushes them 12km BEHIND YOU. you then have to go through the grueling process of not just turning around but also getting there by that time it will most likely be destroyed so then you have to try and lug around to another target
Indeed, but you can totally adapt in that situation: Let someone else kill it and don't waste the effort on trying to turn.

Tada.

/sarcasm.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 86
04-24-2013, 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
It would more be putting mechanics questions to the test.



You insist they are getting "3x" the benefit, without actually evaluating how much benefit that actually translates to in practice vs. the new benefit gained for Cruisers.



You also haven't, even once, justified just exactly what it is your typical beam cruiser actually needs even more turn rate for beyond QOL.
Why does a beam cruiser need it ? FOR defence and offence. If you think a beam cruiser doesn't need turn, you are mistaken. A broadside is 70 degrees.

Mechanics ? You mean those mechanics that make it even easier for an escort to park behind cruiser and avoid its broadside ? Those mechanics ? Or those mechanics that allow escorts to change shield facings - something cruiser - a tank - is unable to? Ye ye, bla bla, cross healing is your response.

Seriously, You have trouble avoiding 70 degree arc of cruiser beam broadside ? or aiming your 45 degree weapons on slow cruiser ? Even with current values ? My steamrunner with just 1 RCS console has no trouble...but maybe you can hop into your GALAXY and show me, how you can avoid me parking behind you and shooting on me those nasty 70 degrees broadsides, so I tremble with fear before you.

Who has it harder ? the escort with 50 turn and 45 degree weapons ? or the Cruiser with 12 turn rate and 70 degree broadside ? Who has to turn even more to spike torpedoes ? the escort that does face the target 100% of the time ? or the cruiser that has torpedoes outside the broadside arcs ? Mindless FAW is your response, or was it that cruisers should be just healer slaves ? Now I do not remeber exactly what does your holy premade book say.

Why have DHC bonus dmg for narrow arc, when it is so trivial for escort to aim it ? Except for maybe bug vs. bug duels ?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,224
# 87
04-24-2013, 11:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
/spacesavingsnip
I come from a different school of thought. A school that obviously will be ignored by Geko and the Systems Team - because it would cause so much outrage. I don't believe in buffing Turn for Cruisers as much as I do nerfing it for Escorts.

Escorts turn far too fast. They're not fighters. They're still starships. Folks tend to say Inertial Dampeners...yeah, no...crew would be meat pancakes - hit some buffs and the structure would collapse.

Here, let me copy my main Fed Eng over to Tribble again. He's sporting 9 in SIT and has access to a more diverse selection of ships than my other guys. For this, each ship will have available to it a Tachyokinetic Converter +22.9%, RCS Mk XI +35%, and Aegis Engines. The various buffs used by each, when used, will be listed in their individual sections. I will not be mixing any buffs for this - since that can get complicated with stacking issues. All numbers are based off the initial @x/25 Eng Power.

Odyssey Operations Cruiser (Base Turn: 6 Impulse Mod: 0.15 Inertia: 20)
@53/25 Eng Power: 9.5
EM3: 33.5
APO1: 14.2
EPtE1: 12.3
AtD1: 13.4
EPS3: 10.5
Tachyo: 10.2
RCS: 11.6
Chevron: 17.5

Mirror Assault Cruiser (Base Turn: 7 Impulse Mod: 0.15 Inertia: 30)
@53/25 Eng Power: 11.1
EM3: 39.1
EPtE1: 14.0
AtD1: 16.1
EPS3: 12.4
Tachyo: 12.0
RCS: 13.5

Support Cruiser Retrofit (Base Turn: 7 Impulse Mod: 0.15 Inertia: 40)
@53/25 Eng Power: 11.1
EM3: 39.1
EPtE1: 14.0
AtD1: 16.1
EPS3: 12.4
Tachyo: 12.0
RCS: 13.5

Mirror Recon Science Vessel (Base Turn: 11 Impulse Mod: 0.15 Inertia: 33)
@48/25 Eng Power: 18.7
EM3: 62.7
EPtE1: 22.6
AtD1: 29.9
EPS3: 21.3
Tachyo: 20.6
RCS: 22.6

Mirror Deep Space Science Vessel (Base Turn: 13 Impulse Mod: 0.17 Inertia: 50)
@48/25 Eng Power: 22.7
EM3: 74.7
EPtE1: 27.0
AtD1: 36.7
EPS3: 25.9
Tachyo: 25.0
RCS: 27.2

Breen Chel Grett Warship (Base Turn: 13 Impulse Mod: 0.18 Inertia: 50)
@53/25 Eng Power: 23.2
EM3: 75.2
APO3*: 38.6
APO1*: 38.6
EPtE1: 27.5
AtD1: 35.2
EPS3: 26.4
Tachyo: 25.5
RCS: 27.7

*They provide the same speed/turn (only the Defense, Damage, and Resist change).

Mirror Advanced Escort (Base Turn: 16 Impulse Mod: 0.20 Inertia: 70)
@48/25 Eng Power: 28.6
EM3: 92.6
APO3*: 47.9
APO1*: 47.9
EPtE1: 36.3
AtD1: 44.2
EPS3: 32.8
Tachyo: 31.5
RCS: 34.2

*They provide the same speed/turn (only the Defense, Damage, and Resist change).

Yes, I included vessels where the numbers were the same at times because they had the same base turn. However, there's no denying the difference one feels in those ships because of the impulse mod and inertia ratings.

For the items that were represented with each vessel, here's how they changed based on the increase in turn.

Odyssey Operations -> Mirror Assault/Support Retrofit
Base Turn: +1 Eng Power: same
EM3: +5.6
EPtE1: +1.7
AtD1: +2.7
EPS3: +1.9
Tachyo: +1.8
RCS: +1.9

Mirror Assault/Support Retrofit -> Mirror Recon
Base Turn: +4 Eng Power: -5
EM3: +23.6
EPtE1: +8.6
AtD1: +13.8
EPS3: +8.9
Tachyo: +8.6
RCS: +9.1

Mirror Recon -> Mirror Deep
Base Turn: +2 Eng Power: same
EM3: +12.0
EPtE1: +4.4
AtD1: +6.8
EPS3: +4.6
Tachyo: +4.4
RCS: +4.6

Mirror Deep -> Chel Grett
Base Turn: same Eng Power: +5
EM3: +0.5
EPtE1: +0.5
AtD1: -1.5 (I triple checked this...got to love bugs)
EPS3: +0.5
Tachyo: +0.5
RCS: +0.5

Chel Grett -> Mirror Advanced
Base Turn: +3 Eng Power: -5
EM3: +17.4
EPtE1: +8.8
AtD1: +9.0
EPS3: +6.4
Tachyo: +6.0
RCS: +6.5

With this, I only went from a 6 Turn Odyssey to a 16 Turn Mirror Advanced. The actual scale goes from the Vo'Quv to the B'Rel. My Hegh'ta ~50 Eng Power w/1 RCS Mk XI (+22.5%) is at ~44 Turn...compared to the Odyssey at 11.6. I hit EM3 on the Hegh'ta, and I'm over 120 Turn compared to 33.5 on the Ody.

Over 120 Turn? Hegh'ta? Like I said, that's beyond meat pancakes - the structure has collapsed.

Also, keep in mind - various Turn buffs do stack. Though, it's tricky at times. Order matters. Timing matters. Sure, some just don't stack; but with others - do the second one too soon and it won't count...do the second one second instead of first and it won't count.

The whole movement thing needs a massive QA pass, imho...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 734
# 88
04-24-2013, 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
The whole movement thing needs a massive QA pass, imho...
Well, they could always make a turn rate cap that would allow those ships to retain their high maneuverability without buffs, but if the ultra super duper buff, they get cut off at some point to prevent the pancaking.

Same thing they could introduce for balancing the game both for 1v1 pvp and 2-3+ vs 1 which is an incoming damage cap that gives someone a fighting chance against multiple opponents. The cap has to be high enough so that you can be killed, of course, but low enough so that 2-3 ships won't blow through you in two seconds if it's uber minmaxed full dual cannon escorts with five non-diminishing returns tactical consoles riding your aft. Or perhaps a system that can detect how many players are targeting you and increase your resistances/defense rating to give you that epic battle where it might be enough for you to actually win when this group tried to gank you, or at the very least let you go down fighting. (not the tac skill)
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,224
# 89
04-24-2013, 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathofachilles View Post
Well, they could always make a turn rate cap that would allow those ships to retain their high maneuverability without buffs, but if the ultra super duper buff, they get cut off at some point to prevent the pancaking.
It's kind of funny, because when some of the folks out there have suggested it's covered by Inertial Dampeners - I've wondered about Cryptic doing that. Actually setting caps based on a character's skill in ID. If they've got 3, then they're capped at a certain number - at 6, at 9, etc, etc, etc - also, allowing for consoles to allow them to go higher.

I was undecided whether that suggestion should have ship modifiers - or - if it would simply be a case that the lower base turn ships wouldn't need to worry about ID in the way that higher turn ships would have to worry about ID.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 90
04-24-2013, 11:34 PM
I think it boils down to two camps. One thing that escorts turn too much, the other thing there is never enough of turn. Of course we will never reach consensus

Geko in his podcast said he won't nerf escorts or anything related to them (dhc/tankyness), and he won't buff cruisers because he is afraid of forum rage / powercreep. SO it is not like something ever changes until this "design philosophy" is changed. After all, escorts sell best and vast majority of player base enjoys them.
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