Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,212
# 601
04-27-2013, 08:15 PM
The problem with Warp Shadow (just as with the old photonic decoy, or all the saucers seperated, etc.) is that the copies do not display with fleet name, title, name, and ship name, like a player ship does if you have selected those options in your UI. Thus, you can trivially tell which one is the real enemy, defeating the Warp Shadow's purpose.

Last edited by sophlogimo; 04-27-2013 at 08:19 PM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 465
# 602
04-27-2013, 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyouki View Post
...and here we go again.



You're ignoring the methods we have for reducing cooldown and charge time (which, admittedly, the T'Varo console isn't available to us yet), and the others sure to come. You're ignoring that it's not one, but a selection of five potent skills, two of which are especially useful for providing protection and cover for when you use the battle cloak. And if you'd STILL rather not play with that, there's a fine selection of ally and lockbox ships available.

Also, if you're looking at the escort-ish warbirds (Dhelan, Mogai), the -1 turn rate isn't to compensate for the cloak or singularity, it's there because of the +10% hull and x1.0 shield modifier. You're tougher than an escort, and pay a small price in maneuverability for that.
Last time i checked they don't have more shields then a escort 0.9 for mogai and Dhelan,

I'd like to ask though how are certain people playing with the other singularity powers yet ?

mogai retrofit= 33000 hull turn 14 shield mod 0.9
chimera = 34500 hull turn 14 shield mod 0.9 this really is the mogai true counter part, they honestly should have same hull hp. or at least boost mogai to 34000
heavy escort carrier = 32000 turn 15 shield mod 0.9 thats not 10% more but it is
Dhelan retrofit = 31500 hull turn 16 shield mod 0.9 this one seems fine though.
D'deridex retrofit = 40500 hull turn 5.5(according to dev though it shows 5) shield mod 1.0
Exploration retrofit = 40000 hull turn 6 shield mod 1.0


500 extra hull isn't really much for a loss of .5 turn 2000-1000 seem more reasonable.

Last edited by cryptkeeper0; 04-27-2013 at 10:43 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 301
# 603
04-27-2013, 11:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper0 View Post
[..]
mogai retrofit= 33000 hull turn 14 shield mod 0.9
chimera = 34500 hull turn 14 shield mod 0.9 this really is the mogai true counter part, they honestly should have same hull hp. or at least boost mogai to 34000
heavy escort carrier = 32000 turn 15 shield mod 0.9 thats not 10% more but it is
Dhelan retrofit = 31500 hull turn 16 shield mod 0.9 this one seems fine though.
D'deridex retrofit = 40500 hull turn 5.5(according to dev though it shows 5) shield mod 1.0
Exploration retrofit = 40000 hull turn 6 shield mod 1.0


500 extra hull isn't really much for a loss of .5 turn 2000-1000 seem more reasonable.
I have to agree with you. The Mog should see 34k. I also think the D should see 43k given the inherent penalty.

If they had true "class" ships shield wise it would be nice to see a base system. for example for Tac: 0.9 - [frigate - 0.8, escort - 0.9, heavy - 1.0]

The "standard" ship would be:
Tac: 0.9
Sci: 1.0
Eng: 1.1

The version could be +/- 0.1 for all classes and the reverse would apply to the turn value for real balance methinks.

Hull wise I think each tier ship should get 5k with "lite & heavy" variants at +/- 20%. With a base system of:

Tac - 1000
Sci - 1250
Eng - 1500

The variants could also have a +/- one (1) console slot.

There is more but given I'm very tired right now not sure if this makes sense....

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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 604
04-28-2013, 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper0 View Post
Last time i checked they don't have more shields then a escort 0.9 for mogai and Dhelan,

I'd like to ask though how are certain people playing with the other singularity powers yet ?

mogai retrofit= 33000 hull turn 14 shield mod 0.9
chimera = 34500 hull turn 14 shield mod 0.9 this really is the mogai true counter part, they honestly should have same hull hp. or at least boost mogai to 34000
heavy escort carrier = 32000 turn 15 shield mod 0.9 thats not 10% more but it is
Dhelan retrofit = 31500 hull turn 16 shield mod 0.9 this one seems fine though.
D'deridex retrofit = 40500 hull turn 5.5(according to dev though it shows 5) shield mod 1.0
Exploration retrofit = 40000 hull turn 6 shield mod 1.0


500 extra hull isn't really much for a loss of .5 turn 2000-1000 seem more reasonable.
Where is the free battlecloak in your equations ?
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 605
04-28-2013, 04:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper0 View Post
Last time i checked they don't have more shields then a escort 0.9 for mogai and Dhelan,
Ah, you're looking at the Retrofits; I hadn't recorded the stats on those since they haven't been "officially" released even on Tribble (once we've had the rest of the content to level us to 50 released, I'll consider them to be at what the devs feel to be "here, try the balance on this" stage). Once they actually extend the beta phase to let us finish out the Romulan campaigns, I'll assume whatever's listed for the ship is the "final" form, until then I see it as "subject to change". Not that we can't give good feedback on what's already posted, mind you.

It's very odd, though...the T2 Dhelan and T3 Mogai are definitely tougher (if only a bit) than their escort counterparts; they define the Warbird at those levels as a bit slower but a bit tougher than escorts (and they get +10 Weapon, +5 Engine power rather than the escort's +15 Weapon power). Why would they throw that out for the T5 Retrofits, turning them into more generic escorts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper0 View Post
I'd like to ask though how are certain people playing with the other singularity powers yet ?
If I read correctly, if you're willing to grind up to lvl 50 outside of the episodic content, you can still get your free veteran-rewards ship from the selection of Retrofits, despite not being able to get the free D'deridex and Ha'apax (because you can't complete the promotion mission yet).

Last edited by hyouki; 04-28-2013 at 04:38 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 606
04-28-2013, 04:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper0 View Post
I'm not saying they are worthless but -40 overall power is very steep price, if they do remove bridge officer slots or consoles I'd be even more disappointed unless its just ensign or something...,
-40 power points is a challenge, but one I think can be worked around; rather than the sustained "keep all power up to all systems" model that people currently use, we'll have to work with the original escort model, to stack our skills, batteries, etc for a maximal burst of firepower/healing/whatever and then let it drop down in one or more areas while we set up the next burst. I don't have a problem with that, it's a lot more interesting and challenging than just trying to be uber all the time. Though with traits like the Engineer's battery trait being added, we might have more options for mitigating that power loss.

Giving up any of the BOff slots, though, I would argue against in the strongest terms. The effect of reduced skills would be to limit the customizability of the ships, reducing the variety seen in Warbirds and the viability of alternate builds. The loss of console slots, while less visible, would similarly constrict the variety of Warbird builds in the wild (especially considering the C-Store Warbird console's set bonuses).

What I'd really like to do is to be able to test the Warbird with the original -40 power balance at endgame with decent gear to get a feeling for how much impact the power penalty, the battle cloak, and singularity cloak make on what ends up being the vast majority of the time spent in the game, as opposed to how it feels while levelling up.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 465
# 607
04-28-2013, 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Where is the free battlecloak in your equations ?
battle cloak is useful yes, but it has major disadvantages like you can't really activate while under heavy fire I did that mistake a few times.. You pop faster then a balloon meets a tack, becuase enemy torpedoes tear through your hull sundering a gaping hole in your ship. Only way's I can see to counter act this if your in high hull ship like the d'deridex stacking monotonium, or using warp shadows with the singularity core that scrambles torpedoes. But remember you can't use hull healing skills while in cloak.

The problem I see with loose of -40 is not only do you have to stack energy skills, you will never catch up to fed or kdf ship in energy not that this is problem but 40 energy gap all ways seems much, but 20 is much more livable. Then energy skills could actually make up for it mostly.

Also as said by the dev post mogai isn't escort but more of a destroyer.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 608
04-28-2013, 09:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper0 View Post
battle cloak is useful yes, but it has major disadvantages like you can't really activate while under heavy fire I did that mistake a few times.. You pop faster then a balloon meets a tack, becuase enemy torpedoes tear through your hull sundering a gaping hole in your ship. Only way's I can see to counter act this if your in high hull ship like the d'deridex stacking monotonium, or using warp shadows with the singularity core that scrambles torpedoes. But remember you can't use hull healing skills while in cloak.
Singularity jump can be useful too; charge your most damaging enemy (or cluster of enemies), pop Singularity Jump, and hit the battle cloak before they get out of the effect of the accuracy debuff.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 609
04-28-2013, 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper0 View Post
battle cloak is useful yes, but it has major disadvantages like you can't really activate while under heavy fire I did that mistake a few times.. You pop faster then a balloon meets a tack, becuase enemy torpedoes tear through your hull sundering a gaping hole in your ship. Only way's I can see to counter act this if your in high hull ship like the d'deridex stacking monotonium, or using warp shadows with the singularity core that scrambles torpedoes. But remember you can't use hull healing skills while in cloak.


Also as said by the dev post mogai isn't escort but more of a destroyer.
The viability of the ability is kinda no concern of mine. Simple cloak costs 1 console slot. With that logic, all romulan ships have extra universal console slot that is occupied with battlecloak.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 465
# 610
04-28-2013, 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
The viability of the ability is kinda no concern of mine. Simple cloak costs 1 console slot. With that logic, all romulan ships have extra universal console slot that is occupied with battlecloak.
klingon ships don't loose a console slot for cloak, but if your bringing fed ships in defiant and dreadnought ships really should have a innate cloak, much like the heavy escort carrier has innate fighter bay.

Instead dread could get their console replaced by a console that buffs their lance ability, the defiant retrofit I don't know what it should have for a console tbh but I'm sure they could come up with something.

But there is no logic in not taking into account the viability of a ability, that's merely being dismissive.
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