Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 432
# 21
04-29-2013, 10:40 AM
When you're PUGging, Greed=Pass.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 73
# 22
04-29-2013, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by cptshephard View Post
I used to do the whole "Need it if I need it, greed it if I don't" fair play rule in PuGs.

Then I realized everyone else was needing on everything, so now in PuGs I default to need. Otherwise you'll never get anything. A situation isn't fair when you're the only one being fair.
used to do that too, after a while i realized i was leaving mission after mission with no drops what so ever
so then i decided to do some searching on need/greed here on the forum and saw another thread like this that explained it, then i realized all those times i was being nice and hitting greed... i was giving the items away with no hope to get any of them

so from then on, always need

ofc the exception are missions i do with my fleet, then its usually round robin
"Tickle us, do we not laugh? Prick us, do we not bleed? Wrong us, shall we not revenge?"
-General Chang
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,489
# 23
04-29-2013, 02:51 PM
Need everything. Random selection is completely fair, and if you're not submitting your name for a random selection then you forfeit any right to talk about other players being unreasonable.

That said, if you see some loot go by that you really really want, say something after the battle. Check your system log tab for the loot rolls to see who got what. I for one am willing to cut deals with people who were on my team or give stuff away outright if it's relatively cheap. Never hurts to ask.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,252
# 24
04-29-2013, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by voyagerfan9751 View Post
If I was actually going to use the item for improving my build (I am rather low level on the toon I am using, so the build could use help) I would roll Need. If I was only going to sell the item for some quick EC, I would roll Greed. and of course if I didn't think it was worth my time either way, I would pass. I figured this was fairest to everyone, especially since I don't really know any of the other players.
Your mistake is thinking that anything but vendor trash drops.

Originally Posted by tlamstrike View Post
This is the policy our fleet uses, and I think it is a very good one.
An all fleet group is different.

The drops are still vendor trash, though.

Last edited by millimidget; 04-29-2013 at 09:22 PM.
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 789
# 25
04-30-2013, 01:25 AM
I always need because i always need.

- always need more EC that is.
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,377
# 26
04-30-2013, 01:44 AM
Personally I pass unless it is an upgrade for that character or one of my alts, then I need. I get enough vendor trash from mission replays for my needs. Do I think others should do this? Nope, it's each to their own here.

For example I am going to try a plasma build ship wise, so I have been replaying the Romulan arc missions that give the items for that. What I want is the reward of the mission, pretty much everything else that drops is vendor trash.
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,158
# 27
04-30-2013, 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by m4tth3wk4n3 View Post
This is it. From now on I will N E E D everything, even if its just a friggin' white, common mkX phaser array... Its all ec...
Nitpick: Whites are done purely on finders-keepers. Only green and above gets submitted to group review.

Of course, my group just runs FFA to cut down on even that distraction.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,005
# 28
04-30-2013, 09:17 AM
The problem with the Need/Greed mechanic is because of a psychology concept known as the Public Goods Game. Basically, when a system depends on everyone behaving fairly it only takes one person acting selfishly to collapse the entire system. Two examples:

1. (a parable): You and two other families live out in the wilderness near a lake. The lake provides very good fishing, enough to support all three of you. You all agree to only take what you need for your family, and the lake will remain well stocked and everybody will be happy. After a while, you notice one of the other people is taking some extra fish from the lake and selling them in town for extra money. If you just allow this one person to do this, the lake will still be fine and able to supply you all. However, because it's "not fair", you are heavily inclined to start taking as much as he is. If you don't, the third person will. So pretty soon, you're all taking more than you need, the lake gets overfished, and now nobody has anything.

2a. (a lab experiment): Researchers give each member of a group $20. Each round, they have the option to contribute $1 to a communal pot. The researchers will then double the money in the pot and give each participant an equal cut back. Participants can not tell who is contributing and who is not. At first, everybody contributes and the maximum amount of money comes back. After a couple rounds, somebody realizes they can personally do better if they stop chipping in, but still get a cut of the proceeds regardless. The others soon notice, and more people stop chipping in. Before long, nobody chips in, and nobody gets anything. Rationally you should always contribute regardless of other people's behavior, because getting less is better than getting nothing. That's not how people will respond though, because it's "not fair", and with anonymity preventing any sort of personal reprisal against the cheater people just start to respond in kind.

2b. Same as above, except now you do it out in the open around a table where everybody can see whether you contribute or not. Everybody contributes, every time, due to social pressure. Nobody wants to be the guy who isn't chipping in.

The lab experiment basically demonstrates what the difference is between a PUG and a group of fleeties. In a PUG, your behavior has no consequence. So why not abuse the system? With your fleet mates, you are no longer anonymous, and may face reprisal by the fleet for needing unnecessarily. The takeaway here is that you will never get PUGs to use Need/Greed properly. Even if you can convince 99% of players to obey the rule, it only takes 1 miscreant in a match to collapse the entire thing. You might as well just accept it as the way it is and Need everything in PUGs.

Last edited by shockwave85; 04-30-2013 at 09:20 AM.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 355
# 29
04-30-2013, 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
Need everything. Random selection is completely fair, and if you're not submitting your name for a random selection then you forfeit any right to talk about other players being unreasonable.
I think the point here is that for FA/STF random drops being almost without exception vendor trash (I see maybe one random drop per ESTF that's even worth putting on the exchange), there's little real point to a need/greed system as in this game it just confuses players. Just change it to roll/pass.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:

Spock's Brain.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,005
# 30
04-30-2013, 12:16 PM
One easy thing that could be done is just set the default loot mode in PUGs to round robin. No complaints then, no need to roll on crap while you're trying to fly, everybody gets a more or less even number of items (if not necessarily even value).

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