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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,174
# 11
05-04-2013, 03:17 AM
NOTE: Recent testing shows that EPtW is no longer a final modifier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
The question is - for those with bettter math skills.

Whats the tac console value of EpTW power ?
Tac Consoles have a quirky sort of diminishing return. The more you have of them - the better your skills - the better your gear - the less each actually contributes to your overall damage. It's not an actually diminishing return - it's a contributory diminishing return. Er, if that makes sense?

If what I said above is right (I haven't searched for the threads yet - I probably should, but I want to grab a smoke - so if I'm wrong, I'll come back and fix this)...then it would look something like this.

Say you've got 9 Weapon Training, 9 Energy Weapons, a VR Mk XII DHC (no Dmg mods), and running at 125 Weapon Power.

Base = 174
+ (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 260.913 (Weapon Training)
+ (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 347.826 (Energy Weapons)
+ (174 * 1.2) = 556.626 (Mark XII)
+ (174 * (4 * 0.025)) = 569.676 (Very Rare)
* (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 1424.19 (Weapon Power)

Let's add a +30% Console to that.

Base = 174
+ (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 260.913 (Weapon Training)
+ (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 347.826 (Energy Weapons)
+ (174 * 1.2) = 556.626 (Mark XII)
+ (174 * (4 * 0.025)) = 569.676 (Very Rare)
+ (1 * (174 * 0.30)) = 621.876 (+30% Tac Console)
* (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 1554.69 (Weapon Power)

So that single +30% console gave us around +9.2% damage.

Let's add a second +30% Console to that.

Base = 174
+ (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 260.913 (Weapon Training)
+ (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 347.826 (Energy Weapons)
+ (174 * 1.2) = 556.626 (Mark XII)
+ (174 * (4 * 0.025)) = 569.676 (Very Rare)
+ (2 * (174 * 0.30)) = 674.076 (+30% Tac Console)
* (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 1685.19 (Weapon Power)

The second console gave us around +8.4% additional damage over the single console.

Each console actually adds the same amount...52.2 damage. It's just as you increase the amount of damage being done, that 52.2 is staying the same and thus becoming a smaller and smaller part of the overall damage. So there's no diminishing return in regard to the 52.2 - it's the same (for a +30% console for DHCs, it will vary depending on the +X% and the weapon's base damage)...there is a diminishing return as far as how much each makes up of the overall damage.

It's a play on things actually, if one thinks about it. They're not adding less damage, they're just adding less of the overall damage. Twisted, eh? Complicated? Yeah, lol...the more damage you're doing - up the gear, add [Dmg] mods, add in all the buffs, throw in some crits...the less each will appear to add to your overall damage.

Here's an example, so to speak (please let the math be right - cause I think my left eye just twitched and then closed and I'm definitely leaning to the right in my chair...so asleep, lol).

Single +30% Tac Console for DHCs...

(1 * (174 * 0.30)) = 52.2
52.2 * (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 130.5

Say we do a +47.1% APA3...

(130.5) + (130.5 * 0.471) = 191.9655

Say we add a +14.2% APO1...

191.9655 + (130.5 * 0.142) = 210.4965

Say we do a +24.9% GDF3...

210.4965 + (130.5 * 0.249) = 242.991

Say we add a +30% T-Fleet2...

242.991 + (130.5 * 0.3) = 282.141

Say we do a +10% EPtW1...

282.141 * 1.1 = 310.3551

Given all those buffs - that's how much additional damage that each +30% Tac Console would add. Given all those buffs...that number would remain the same for each +30% Tac Console. However, all those buffs would also apply to the other things.

Hrmm, here's a simpler way of putting it I guess. I should grab some caffeine or go smoke...hrmm. I'll post it and then come back to read if it makes any sense.

1 (1 is 100% of 1)

1 + 1 = 2 (1 is 50% of 2)

1 + 1 + 1 = 3 (1 is ~33% of 3)

1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4 (1 is 25% of 4)

The value of 1 is always 1. However, the percentage that each 1 contributes to the whole diminishes as each additional 1 is added. A constant and diminishing returns all wrapped up in...1 (yes, a sleepy pun!).

I'm going to grab another diet Mountain Dew.

edit: Hrmm, that example with the 1's didn't quite describe what I was trying to describe. It does show how the overall contribution diminishes for each console - showing how much each contributes, but that's not the same as...

1 + 1 + 1 = 3
1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4 (The 4th 1 makes it +33% more than it was before.)
1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5 (The 5th 1 makes it +25% more than it was before.)
1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6 (The 6th 1 makes it +20% more than it was before.)

So as you add more 1's, each 1 adds "less" to the total even though 1 is always 1 and always adding the "same"...
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 05-06-2013 at 04:32 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,174
# 12
05-04-2013, 03:25 AM
NOTE: Recent testing shows that EPtW is no longer a final modifier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Wouldn't matter when you multiply weapon power as long as you remained consistent.
With certain of the additive modifiers coming before the Weapon Power multiplier which determines the new base for the additive modifiers that come after the Weapon Power...it should matter where the each of the additive modifiers is added, no?

This thread, no? http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=604551

I'm going for a smoke.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 05-06-2013 at 04:32 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 13
05-04-2013, 03:31 AM
My question was more along the lines.

Fleet Cheyene with EPtW3 vs. Fleet Excelsior with EptW1

Which one does more raw dmg, with let's say 6 beams
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,174
# 14
05-04-2013, 03:49 AM
NOTE: Recent testing shows that EPtW is no longer a final modifier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
My question was more along the lines.

Fleet Cheyene with EPtW3 vs. Fleet Excelsior with EptW1

Which one does more raw dmg, with let's say 6 beams
Meh, my guy can't train EPtW3 so I can't see the actual numbers that he would get for it.

The difference for the base numbers according to STOwiki is +9.1% damage (as well as providing an additional 10 Weapon Power to cover drain). It's doubtful that the 4th Tac Console would add more than +9.1% to the damage and it wouldn't provide the additional +10 power either.

However, STOwiki lists +7.5% for EPtW1 while my guy's sporting +10% for EPtW1... what bonuses do you have listed for EPtW1 and EPtW3 on your guy? The difference between those two (keeping the +10 Weapon Power in mind), would be what would have to be covered by the 4th Tac Console the Excelsior has over the Cheyenne...
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 05-06-2013 at 04:32 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 15
05-04-2013, 04:11 AM
EPW1 is +10%, EPW3 is 16,6% if you asking for that hehe.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,086
# 16
05-04-2013, 04:43 AM
Excel, ignoring the weapon power overcap, by a very tiny amount.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...teUtiQmc#gid=0

If you can understand it. Nap time for me too. Excel is on the right.

Note things like increasing your weapon skill can change the outcome.
STO's F2P is basically an inferior experience for the masses at no cost being subsidized by a handful of whales seeking whatever it is that motivates them to spend hundreds if not thousands on a game.

Last edited by bareel; 05-04-2013 at 04:46 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,174
# 17
05-04-2013, 04:54 AM
NOTE: Recent testing shows that EPtW is no longer a final modifier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Excel, ignoring the weapon power overcap, by a very tiny amount.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...teUtiQmc#gid=0

If you can understand it. Nap time for me too. Excel is on the right.

Note things like increasing your weapon skill can change the outcome.
Yeah, even without breaking out the math - the 4th console on the Excelsior should provide the slight advantage as seen in that spreadsheet. It should be able to cover the 6.6% difference and give that little edge.

Course, it still gets complicated because of the additional +Weapon Power of the EPtW3 which could help with drain...but factoring in drain is well beyond anything I've ever done or would be up to at this point...heh.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 05-06-2013 at 04:32 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,481
# 18
05-04-2013, 06:10 AM
I think of a force multiplier as one that scales in a way that when it's used its benefits increase the potential of others as well as the player using it. Since EPtW only increases a single player's effectiveness I'd say it's not. I do get where you're going in that it's potentially a force multiplier in terms of boosting stacked abilities, but there are a lot of abilities that do this directly or indirectly and boost the ability of others to be effective.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,618
# 19
05-04-2013, 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
I think of a force multiplier as one that scales in a way that when it's used its benefits increase the potential of others as well as the player using it. Since EPtW only increases a single player's effectiveness I'd say it's not. I do get where you're going in that it's potentially a force multiplier in terms of boosting stacked abilities, but there are a lot of abilities that do this directly or indirectly and boost the ability of others to be effective.
Yeah force multiplier isnt reallt apt. Perhaps this is closer to a turbo button....:-p

I will however be trying afew variations on my Battle Oddy. since I effectively have 3 BO's on it Im going to try 2 EPTW1's and 1 EPTE3 see which gets me the most mileage
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,551
# 20
05-06-2013, 10:49 AM
Hmm...interesting, VERY interesting that EPTW is no longer a final multiplier. Which is kind of a good thing, because it could get a bit insane if it was. It'll still be useful of course, but not to the point of being a little too insane.

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