Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 507
# 21
05-10-2013, 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkkindness2 View Post
You know, I had a problem with the original thread that lead to this one but didn't post there because I just couldn't quite put my finger on what it was. Now I know.

This smacks of the worst sort of arrogance. Who are you to think that you have all of the answers for all of the thousands of Fleets in STO? All of the guilds, fellowships, or what-have-you in all of the other games? People are free to create Fleets to use as personal banks, Fleets to run up the ranks to sell provision-purchasable goods, and are free to sell Fleets that they're not interested in maintaining any more. If someone's account gets hacked and they sell the Fleet that they're the leader of, that's an issue of account security, not the Fleet system. If someone sells a Fleet over their members' protests, well, maybe the prospective members should've vetted the Fleet that they intended to join a bit better. Big Brother restrictions and lengthy charters are not necessary, warranted, or wanted.

On a side note, I doubt that you've ever played EVE. You'd hate it over there.

It stinks of pretentious fed drivel. I was trying to be polite but you are right, this thread is loaded with arrogance.

And I agree about EvE statement. Should get this guy to try running a mercenary corporation, then he might have a taster at what real leadership is all about.

Ah well, okay KDF, load your disruptors! Lets disintegrate this thread!
KDF Future with Cryptic. Fact.

What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 145
# 22
05-10-2013, 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vitzh View Post
It stinks of pretentious fed drivel. I was trying to be polite but you are right, this thread is loaded with arrogance.

And I agree about EvE statement. Should get this guy to try running a mercenary corporation, then he might have a taster at what real leadership is all about.

Ah well, okay KDF, load your disruptors! Lets disintegrate this thread!
Screw disruptors! Ive overloaded my warp core and ordered RAM'ING SPEED!


CAPTAIN! I'm picking up a Golden Age Supervillian on long range sensors. She appears to be mooning us U_U"
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 507
# 23
05-10-2013, 03:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nepht View Post
Screw disruptors! Ive overloaded my warp core and ordered RAM'ING SPEED!
I feel that this thread has overloaded it's own warp core and abandoned ship already.
KDF Future with Cryptic. Fact.

What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 85
# 24
05-10-2013, 04:56 AM
Is this a recruiting thread?
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 85
# 25
05-10-2013, 05:01 AM
What this game needs is open PvP similar to Star Wars galaxies that s when things get interesting and make fleets more relevant.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 46
# 26
05-10-2013, 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtern1ty View Post
Having discussed at length detrimental fleet practices that undermine player confidence in fleets on my thread Fleet recruitment, I feel it only right I should follow up with beneficial practices that help keep the community system we have strong and stable for ourselves & future players to enjoy. The following Articles are compiled from my many experiences in leadership in this and other MMO's throughout the years. I've designed them as common sense principles which benefit any individual fleet, large or small, and the community system as a whole, should a fleet choose to implement them. Feel free to copy and utilize them for your fleet's benefit and/or share your own sound rules of thumb that may be added to the Code. If you are a leader or fleet who finds these principles worthy of use, please let us hear about it in reply to this thread; along with any comments, opinions, or suggestions you may have.

Regards,
Xean
You should talk to the folks that run Starfleet Dental. You have much in common with Dear Leader, aside from not being a superior life form like Dear Leader... or a leader for that matter.
Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 471
# 27
05-10-2013, 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonianbadboy View Post
Is this a recruiting thread?
No. I understand where misunderstanding is bound to develop here. I had originally placed this on the STO Discussion section, same as my last post, but it was moved here. I had it in STO discussion because this thread refers to any fleet in general no matter what faction. If possible I request it be moved back.

One look at my profile pic should tell you I've a KDF main and alt, as well as matching feds. The Code idea I've placed forward was suggested by a moderator for establishment by Cryptic themselves. I've opened the topic for us to do it OURSELVES. Responsible behavior for OUR own benefit. The benefits that fleets gain by reaching a common consensus for engaging cooperatively and not just competitively with each other far outweighs the risks, not to mention the benefit it would do to the game in terms of reputation and survivability; but I don't expect many will understand that. No one said this battle is going to be easy, but I am committed to it and will talk to Brandon about it next time I see him.

The trollers I'll leave to moderators to handle. This is a discussion thread and though opinions, even contrasting ones, are fine; out of context personal remarks are not and border on breaking forum rules. Please stick to the issue. In an excerpt of a great post by one of our moderators:

Quote:
By Bluegeek:
1. Instead of always focusing on what we disagree with, we should take the time to acknowledge what we do agree with.

2. We should make sure we understand what the topic is and what the other guy is trying to say instead of making assumptions that might be bad ones.

Carry on.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 258
# 28
05-10-2013, 12:28 PM
My comments in red, inserted in-line in the quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtern1ty View Post
Section 1 - Articles of Fellowship
United principles which serve all players and fleets.
You are not entitled to speak for all players or all fleets, and have yet to show any moral high ground from which to make these proclamations.

Article
~ 1.1 -
Fleet play enhances and maintains a better STO. So I, as a solo player, detract from STO as a game environment? I think not, and it's arrogant to suggest that Fleet play is the only play that enhances or maintains the game.
~ 1.2 -
All players have the right to participate in any fleet of their choice, with that fleet's approval. No player has a right to participate in any Fleet, even one of their own creation. Players have the privilege of creating a Fleet, accepting a Fleet invitation, or applying to join a Fleet of their choice. This is a privilege that can be revoked at any time, so caveat emptor.
~ 1.3 -
Practice of good relations towards other fleets provides a less stressful community experience. While cordial relations can be a productive part of community building, so can competitive relationships. PvP Fleets wouldn't be as motivated without rivalries, for instance, and there are many aspects of the game in which Fleets can have valid competitive or adversarial relationships.
~ 1.4 -
The community system should be used to unite players, not initiate discord. As long as conduct doesn't violate the Terms of Use, it's fair game. If people want to have rivalries and antagonistic relationships, they should be allowed to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtern1ty View Post
Section 2 - Articles of Community (Fleet Law)
Common principles for all players in fleets.
Again, this comes across as being arrogant and speaking for/to all Fleet players from a position of authority.

Article
~ 2.1 -
All fleetmembers should treat their associates with respect, mindful there is a real person on the other end of the computer screen. Yes, common courtesy is a good thing.
~ 2.2 -
Though the fleet player is primarily responsible for their game character's welfare, they should be freely provided with aid and support should they request. No one is entitled to handouts of any sort be they temporal, financial, or material. People can ask nicely, but should definitely not expect to get such handouts, or feel entitled to them.
~ 2.3 -
No fleet leader in a multi-leader fleet should change fleet settings, including forum, logo, bank and rank settings, without prior consultation and approval of fellow leaders, unless that leader is primarily in charge. This is up to individual Fleet policy, and is what permissions are for. If someone's overstepping their bounds, it's the job of the other leaders or the Fleet founder to take action and reduce their permissions. This can be solved in-game without resorting to a document such as this.
~ 2.4 -
Fleet recruiters, especially in already large and established fleets, should not overzealously pursue players or engage in disruptive recruitment practices such as spam recruiting. Recruiters will do what they will do, and if obnoxious, the game has the "Ignore" and "Report Spam" features to prevent intrusive chat use. Also, players have the option to turn off the ability to be invited to Fleets, thus countering the tactic of blind invites.
~ 2.5 -
New fleetmembers should be given a minimum 1 week trial period to assess their harmony and comfortability with the fleet before advanced rank adjustment. This is up to each individual Fleet, and their metrics may vary drastically from what you've suggested here while still being valid. Examples include requiring a certain level of contribution to Fleet starbase projects before rank advancement, participation in a certain number of Fleet events (PvP or PvE) before rank advancement, or simply participating actively in Fleet chat prior to rank advancement.
~ 2.6 -
Fleet exclusion or kicking should be an option of last resort, implemented only upon Leader or responsible administrator approval, for provable actions that are notably hurtful. Fleets are social clubs, not employers. They do not have to provide notice or justification for the removal of a member. It might not be fun, but that member can try to find a Fleet that better suits their needs next time.
~ 2.7 -
Players should not join a fleet to engage in any action undermining that fleet's stability, such as befriending members to leave for their own fleet, otherwise known as fleet luring. While this isn't as free-form a game as EVE, social competition is still a valid form of gameplay. Some people enjoy it, some people don't. Also, situations like this can arise naturally, without it being the initial intent - how do you propose discriminating between the two occurrences?
~ 2.8 -
A player should not intentionally use a fleet for game financial advancement, such as by tricking leaders into granting a rank of responsability, then using that rank for a hostile takeover. Again, this is the sort of gameplay that MMOs can, and sometimes do, encourage. It's up to the leadership of the Fleet to impose sufficient barriers to entry/oversight/responsibility on higher rank positions to deter would-be thieves, and having a caveat in a document like this will do literally nothing to prevent this from happening.
~ 2.9 -
Fleets should not engage in collective disruptive behavior towards other fleets or players, such as deliberate stalking, trolling, griefing or any other form of harassment. Any behavior that violates the Terms of Use should be reported. There is already a mechanism to handle this issue in-game
~ 2.10 -
Inter-fleet disputes should be settled peacefully upon a negotiated settlement or by choice of game combat. What inter-Fleet disputes could possibly necessitate this sort of resolution? If two Fleets have irreconcilable differences, they can just as easily elect not to interact with one another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtern1ty View Post
Section 3 - Articles of Leadership
Advice and strategies for leaders or any in charge of a fleet from those who've been there.


Article
~ 3.1 -
Be active, preferably playing daily to keep in touch with members and remain relevant to the fleet. No person should be expected to play a minimum amount, regardless of their position in a Fleet. Dictating people's real world schedules is intrusive and rude.
~ 3.2 -
Uphold and follow your own rules. Do not engage in behaviour you prefer other fleetmates not practice. Hypocrisy is not a popular position for leadership to take. I would imagine that this would be a self-correcting issue, as people would be more likely to leave a Fleet with an actively hypocritical leader.
~ 3.3 -
If given a position of trust, do not abuse that trust or credibility in one's character will suffer as a result. How on Earth will "...one's character... suffer as a result"? There's no way to impose sanctions on a given character, other than socially, which is handled adequately by current in-game systems. If you mean that one's moral character or reputation will suffer, well, that should be readily apparent - lying and cheating don't earn you friends.
~ 3.4 -
If word has been given, engage action as said or explain good reason why not, to further maintain credibility.Again, a common social convention whose violation is self-correcting. This line is useless, as there's not a social situation in which you can toss your obligations out the window without good reason and without loss of face.
~ 3.5 -
Do not accept bribes, engage in rulebreaking, entertain in futile and timewasting fights with players or put oneself in a position by which another player may ascertain moral high-ground. Who really cares about any of this? If it's a violation of the Terms of Use, it should be addressed using in-game means. If it's not, it should be resolved between the players involved, not a one size fits all charter document. Especially funny, since you seem to be approaching this whole thing from a position of having the moral high ground over others.
~ 3.6 -
Remain composed in situations of drama, do not be offended by personal remarks, sarcastic behaviour or taunts, in order to think clearly for appropriate action. - Very hard to master.Legislating emotions now, are we? Interesting choice. Anyway, tolerance for 'drama' will vary from one group to the next, and should be handled by that group's common consensus/internal rules, rather than a one size fits all document.
~ 3.7 -
Be protective of account(s) you hold and one's game character when playing, at all times. Being protective of your account details is intrinsic to playing an MMO, and most of them have a clause in the Terms of Use about just such issues. This is already handled there.
~ 3.8 -
If a leader wishes to leave their office, they must specifically delegate another member or members to undertake it. Why? Obviously it sucks to have a Fleet go derelict, but it happens and can't honestly be prevented, since there are lots of conditions that can and do contribute to things happening.
~ 3.9 -
Do not be dismayed if members undervalue your service to the fleet. A true leader is one who does the dirty work, so everyone else can enjoy their time. Much of what you do are little things others take for granted. A good leader must maintain a steady course of accomplishment, regardless of popular opinion. "Keep your head up" is good social advice in general, but a leader should definitely pay attention to public opinion. If, for example, you take it on yourself to fill all Fleet Mark requirements personally and people have a problem with that, it's not "maintain[ing] a steady course of accomplishment", it's running roughshod over your Fleet members.
~ 3.10 -
Be rational yet think with heart, calm but decisive, honest to your friends and fellow members and protective of fleet's best interests. Philosophizing is all well and good, but isn't what a charter is generally for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtern1ty View Post
Section 4 - Articles of Enterprise
Universal goals that endure.


Article
~ 4.1 -
Fleets that utilize the Code are dedicated to maintaining STO's enjoyable community environment. Fleets that don't use the code are dedicated to maintaining STO's enjoyable community environment as well, but not necessarily in your narrowly-prescribed manner.
~ 4.2 -
Remain active and be the best you can be by virtue of quality deeds. Define 'quality deeds' in a manner that encompasses all types of gameplay and interpersonal interaction, please. Too vague otherwise.
~ 4.3 -
Be not afraid to reach out to other fleets if you are unable to reach your fleet goals on you own. I have no idea what you're trying to say or accomplish with this line, so I can't comment on it further.
~ 4.4 -
The measure of your fleet legacy will be defined by your actions as a fleet and by the benefit you bring in maintaining a sound fleet system and thriving game. Sorry to be nihilistic, but the measure of your Fleet legacy will be nothing. There are over 15,000 Fleets in STO, so any one is a drop in the ocean at best. Even disregarding that, the legacy of all but the most dedicated multi-game Fleets will be nothing, as the servers will one day come down or be reduced to a tiny, insular population. And the dedicated multi-game Fleets certainly don't need a document like this one - they're all but guaranteed to have something more robust and functional of their own.
~ 4.5 -
Remember the future will always be open to new members, new endeavours and activities. The future will always be open to new members up to the cap of 500, of course.
All righty, then, since you wanted direct focus on the issue at hand, I've gone through line-by-line and commented on why I agree or disagree with each article in your proposed charter. I still disagree with the whole thing on principle, and for much the same reason that I disagree with morality legislation and clauses in the real world. You can try to regulate human behavior, but you'll almost always wind up stepping on someone's toes or rights in doing so.
__________________________________________________
Joined January 2010.

In regard to hating Star Trek 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by kain9prime View Post
IDIC fail.

Last edited by darkkindness2; 05-10-2013 at 12:43 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 258
# 29
05-10-2013, 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtern1ty View Post
One look at my profile pic should tell you I've a KDF main and alt, as well as matching feds. The Code idea I've placed forward was suggested by a moderator for establishment by Cryptic themselves. I've opened the topic for us to do it OURSELVES. Responsible behavior for OUR own benefit. The benefits that fleets gain by reaching a common consensus for engaging cooperatively and not just competitively with each other far outweighs the risks, not to mention the benefit it would do to the game in terms of reputation and survivability; but I don't expect many will understand that. No one said this battle is going to be easy, but I am committed to it and will talk to Brandon about it next time I see him.
It is not obvious from the alien-gen in your profile picture that you have a KDF character at all, much less a main and an alt.

Link to a moderator suggesting that Cryptic might establish morality rules like these in the game, outside of what already exists in the Terms of Use? Citation Needed.

The benefits of Fleets being allowed to compete or cooperate, as they see fit, in an open social environment are at least equally great. Again, I'm going to cite EVE, since they're the most notable example of a game with an almost totally hands-off approach to social interaction. They've managed to create a stable, engaging game without the use of a significant scripted story by letting the players be the actors in their own story - regardless of whether it's tragedy or comedy, drama or farce.

Nice name-dropping in your last line to suggest that you have greater authority and/or input on this issue than is likely the case, as well.
__________________________________________________
Joined January 2010.

In regard to hating Star Trek 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by kain9prime View Post
IDIC fail.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 507
# 30
05-10-2013, 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkkindness2 View Post
letting the players be the actors in their own story - regardless of whether it's tragedy or comedy, drama or farce.
.
Usually it's all four at once on EvE. One thing people don't do much on STO is try to create their own story.

Anyway just going to come out and support darkkindness2 cause what he said is pretty much what we are all thinking and I agree with the majority of his criticisms.

But one last thing that should be said is that your tone stinks xtern1ty. That is your main problem. The way everything worded is like a statement of fact as if this should be the final law. It comes across as sheer blatant arrogance. If you had said something like this on EvE someone would have your cold frozen corpse as a trophy by now.

This has done nothing other than to anger a number of players against you, even if that wasn't your intention.
KDF Future with Cryptic. Fact.

What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
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