Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,329
# 21
05-13-2013, 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by foundrelic View Post
I've always found it odd that the crew of my Jem Dread will "die" like stormtroopers but my hull and shields are barely touched.
Is it not amazing? It is more amazing that on your Dread you might lose 500+ crew to an attack that on a little escort would have only killed off 5 crew despite the fact that your ship is undoubtedly better armored and more of your crew would be in a different location whereas on the small escort they are crammed in like sardines.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,394
# 22
05-13-2013, 08:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasukurobi View Post
Why? There is hardly anything associated with the Crew mechanic. You do not assign crew or even deal with them. The only things that effect them are things that kill them or protect them. Currently they are more like a shield facing than anything remotely close to being like a BOFF.
There's combat. There's consoles. There's old code that the new devs haven't worked on. It's pretty much the same type of thing that always leads to the same old statement:

"We'd have to go into every map" or "We'd have to tweak all of X"

It's something that could break the game further. And all for what? Your solution doesn't add enough to the game for me to be confident enough that the tinkering is worth the risk.

Like I said, I'm all for working on the cruiser gameplay experience. But I think crew mechanics are a waste of effort. And ideas should focus on something new. Not something old. Something new not only avoids any issues with old code breaking the game, but lets the developers add their own mark on the game, something that most creators have more gusto for doing.

Quote:
It is not represented by BOFFs and DOFFs because the big ships do not have more of these and smaller ships less of them.
You misunderstand. This isn't about more. This is about what people expect a crew to do in a Star Trek sense. You watch the shows and you come away from the whole idea of commanding a ship by thinking what you do is what you saw Kirk or Picard do. Which is mostly give orders and help save the day. BOFFs are who you give orders to. You tell your tactical officer to fire your beams ... AT WILL! You tell your science officer to lock on that tractor beam. You call security and have them beam down two more redshirts to your away mission. So on and so forth. That's how people perceive what a captain does in Star Trek. And BOFFs pull that off.

Which leaves DOFFs. What they do is far more what people expect from a captain of a starship. They go on assignments. You are in control of your ship and it's crew. You have your duty roster. You manage it. You assign people to stations. You assign people to tasks.

So what a crew represents in Star Trek is adroitly handled by BOFFs and DOFFs. You give orders. You manage special tasks. You manage the roster. You are in control of who is on your crew and what they are doing. Be it in a pitched space battle bellowing for a full spread of photon torpedoes, on an away mission asking for a medical tricorder for your injured engineer, or simply assigning your on-ship diplomat to meet foreign dignitaries and give them a tour of your ship.

The crew mechanic doesn't do any of that. Is klunky, has never worked, and doesn't do much to represent how crews functioned in Star Trek. You could rename it Inspiration, or Ship Morale, and it would not change a thing about its mechanics or how it represents Star Trek in the game.

It's not needed. It's a risky thing to tamper with. And I think that the solution to helping steer the game away from "MOAR DEEPS, MOAR DEEPS, OK STOP DEEPS" isn't crew. It's something new. Something to help cruisers function better in the game's environment and also FEEL more like Star Trek. Crew mechanic won't cut it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
You're comparing apples and oranges. BOFF ability tweaking not happening stems from the fact that there are piles of systems in place to randomly generate boffs with random starting abilities.
I'm just going off of what is usually said about these kinds of requests. If not BOFF abilities, then exploration revamp. If not that, then diplomacy. If not X, then Y.

Quote:
To do what the OP is suggesting would be a tweak to a specific shared weapon modifier (projectile crew killoff) and the addition of a single modifier in a handful of cooldown formulae. Not a wholesale rewrite of the BOFF replicator coding.
There's itemization involved as multiple consoles deal with crew mechanics. And we've already been through the agonizing process of what happens when they tinker with consoles.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,329
# 23
05-13-2013, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoggymack22 View Post

1) There's combat. There's consoles. There's old code that the new devs haven't worked on. It's pretty much the same type of thing that always leads to the same old statement:

"We'd have to go into every map" or "We'd have to tweak all of X"

It's something that could break the game further. And all for what? Your solution doesn't add enough to the game for me to be confident enough that the tinkering is worth the risk.

Like I said, I'm all for working on the cruiser gameplay experience. But I think crew mechanics are a waste of effort. And ideas should focus on something new. Not something old. Something new not only avoids any issues with old code breaking the game, but lets the developers add their own mark on the game, something that most creators have more gusto for doing.



2) You misunderstand. This isn't about more. This is about what people expect a crew to do in a Star Trek sense. You watch the shows and you come away from the whole idea of commanding a ship by thinking what you do is what you saw Kirk or Picard do. Which is mostly give orders and help save the day. BOFFs are who you give orders to. You tell your tactical officer to fire your beams ... AT WILL! You tell your science officer to lock on that tractor beam. You call security and have them beam down two more redshirts to your away mission. So on and so forth. That's how people perceive what a captain does in Star Trek. And BOFFs pull that off.

Which leaves DOFFs. What they do is far more what people expect from a captain of a starship. They go on assignments. You are in control of your ship and it's crew. You have your duty roster. You manage it. You assign people to stations. You assign people to tasks.

So what a crew represents in Star Trek is adroitly handled by BOFFs and DOFFs. You give orders. You manage special tasks. You manage the roster. You are in control of who is on your crew and what they are doing. Be it in a pitched space battle bellowing for a full spread of photon torpedoes, on an away mission asking for a medical tricorder for your injured engineer, or simply assigning your on-ship diplomat to meet foreign dignitaries and give them a tour of your ship.

The crew mechanic doesn't do any of that. Is klunky, has never worked, and doesn't do much to represent how crews functioned in Star Trek. You could rename it Inspiration, or Ship Morale, and it would not change a thing about its mechanics or how it represents Star Trek in the game.

It's not needed. It's a risky thing to tamper with. And I think that the solution to helping steer the game away from "MOAR DEEPS, MOAR DEEPS, OK STOP DEEPS" isn't crew. It's something new. Something to help cruisers function better in the game's environment and also FEEL more like Star Trek. Crew mechanic won't cut it.

3) There's itemization involved as multiple consoles deal with crew mechanics. And we've already been through the agonizing process of what happens when they tinker with consoles.
1) You need to read the quote about BOFFs from the Devs my friend. They said they did not want to change them because to do so would require that they change the random generation of starter abilities they have, the systems that work off them which these days would likely include DOFFs, Captain Training, Rarity of BOFF, and the way in which Skills and BOFF slots on any given ship work.

Crew are nowhere near as complex as BOFFs. Even with the complexity of BOFFs the Dev said they COULD change them it would just be a real nightmare of working the code. As for the Crew they have made more drastic changes than fixing the Crew just by implementing DOFFs among other things.

As for breaking the Code... How little faith you have in the Devs. I am sure they are happy to hear that you believe them so incompetent. Implementing any "New" change would have just as much probability of causing serious complications with other code as just altering an old mechanic already established. Honestly, it would likely have MORE chance of causing unforeseen issues because they would be having to add in new code over the old codes which can always have odd interactions.


2) Firstly, we rarely see DOFFs doing things in Star Trek. It is mostly the BOFFs who go on away missions or who the Captain orders to do things. You surely do not frequently see DOFFs running out in... Shuttles? Or some such to go carry out missions away from your ship. So they do not really serve as a good example of a particularly Trek-like Crew because they do too much.

However we DO see a lot of the Crew scrambling here and there "Damage Teams" etc to fix the ship. Obviously all those crewmen are REQUIRED for a ship to function properly and the bigger and more capable the vessel the more crew you need. There are numerous references to the fact that big ships need larger crews to sustain their peak performance.

What I am trying to drill through to you is that BOFFs especially do not behave like the Crews from Star Trek and they should not as they are BOFFs not just average crewmen. DOFFs are slightly more like normal Crewmen but if we simply go with them as the mechanic then the fact that bigger vessels have such greater capacity for Crewmen does not help anything. My suggestion would not be helping the DPS of the ship much it would be helping its Tank more which is what Cruisers are MEANT for and would help further put distance between them and Escorts as the true Battle Fortresses Vs. Glass Cannons.

3) Again... Give the Devs a bit more credit. They can handle dealing with TWO consoles (yeah just two effect Crew directly... One kills them and one Protects them...). I mean they could all but REMOVE the one that protects them because you know what? NO ONE uses it. Why? Because currently there is absolutely NO point in keeping your crew alive. Which is why I want to change that.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,394
# 24
05-13-2013, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasukurobi View Post
They said they did not want to change them because to do so would require that they change the random generation of starter abilities they have, the systems that work off them which these days would likely include DOFFs, Captain Training, Rarity of BOFF, and the way in which Skills and BOFF slots on any given ship work.
It's almost the exact same reason given for not revamping the exploration system. It's really similar to the explanation given for not fixing the text boxes break cloaking issue. It requires going in and doing changes to lots of little things.

Quote:
Crew are nowhere near as complex as BOFFs.
I've not seen any evidence to support your assertion. You certainly don't have the experience with the code. If it were so easy to fix ... why's it remained unfixed for so long?

Quote:
As for breaking the Code... How little faith you have in the Devs. I am sure they are happy to hear that you believe them so incompetent.
Just going by the track record. How long before I log onto a new patch on Tribble and my BOFF stations are empty every time I zone?

Quote:
2) Firstly, we rarely see DOFFs doing things in Star Trek. It is mostly the BOFFs who go on away missions or who the Captain orders to do things. You surely do not frequently see DOFFs running out in... Shuttles? Or some such to go carry out missions away from your ship. So they do not really serve as a good example of a particularly Trek-like Crew because they do too much.
You know for someone who just got done telling me to go re-read stuff, it'd have been nice for yuo to read what I had said. Ah well. I give up. I tried to make my point, but you seem married to the idea of trying to fix cruisers through the crew mechanic, which is a waste of time and resources.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 157
# 25
05-13-2013, 01:07 PM
If crew are to be used, then cryptic would need to fix abilities like saucer separation so that when you rejoin you dont loose all the crew on the saucer which happens atm.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,394
# 26
05-13-2013, 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chi1701d View Post
If crew are to be used, then cryptic would need to fix abilities like saucer separation so that when you rejoin you dont loose all the crew on the saucer which happens atm.
Hey now! Don't go getting all crazy up in here. Remember hasukurobi assured us it's just two things the devs need to tweak to fix crew. No other systems or mechanics are touched. And besides, we all know how easy it is for the devs to work on saucer sep mechanics and graphics! (See Galaxy X saucer sep threads for reference).
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,598
# 27
05-13-2013, 01:23 PM
Seems to me that there are two broad ways that crew get taken out.

Kinetic damage and exotic/energy damage.

In the latter case, I can see how losing crew as a percentage works.

Your Defiant has half its hull bathhed in nasty radiation...lose 50% crew.

Your Atrox has half its hull bathed in nasty radiation.....lose 50% crew.

The problem is kinetic damage.

Torpedo hits your port side on a Defiant, then that whole section goes. Let's say 10 crew.

Same torp hits an Atrox, well it doesn't suddently grow and take out several sections at once.


Now, I can appreciate that tinkering with the code may be problematic.

Therefore, I suggest adding a mechanic.

For every 50 crew on the complement, a ship gains an innate 1% kinetic resistance.

Thus, a ship with 50 crew has 1% kinetic resistance before consoles, but a ship with 2000 crew has 40% kinetic resistance.

This means that big ships could soak up kinetic damage much more easily than small ships,without having to modify existing code.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 28
05-13-2013, 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasukurobi View Post
This idea is not all that new but I want to put a slight spin on it. To sum it up: Make Crew Matter.

Right now Crew are meaningless. They help you to recover hull HP when you have active crew but that lasts all of a few seconds in most combat. This is even more insulting for huge ships with thousands of crew. Their crew gets wiped out from the first couple torp hits or the first warp core breech that their lumbering ship cannot get away from but survives.

So first thing is first... Crew should become incapacitated (because they supposedly are not killed) via a numerical value NOT a percentile. The same Torp hit should not lose a Defiant 5 crewmen when it loses a Bortasqu' 500. That would be to say that the Bortsaqu' has a lot more crew but crammed into the same area that the Defiant had so as to arrive at immense population density which is absolutely absurd.

If we make this change alone the big ships would get more use out of having big crew numbers as each scratch would not utterly annihilate their ENTIRE crew. If the Devs feel working with numbers would be hard due to how few crew some ships have then perhaps you need to scale up the number of Crew. A Nimitz Class carrier here on earth supports around 5,000+ active crew including its flight teams. That is the same size roughly as a Constiution. Something like an Odyssey should be boasting several TIMES that much crew and the behemoths that are carriers could easily have crew in the Tens of Thousands.


Next I would recommend having your many crew help in other ways. Faster recovery from subsystem damage, faster power rerouting, faster non-tactical team enhanced shield distribution (when you hit the button, this would not interact with Tactical Team's ability in any way so as not to make it better than it currently is which would be crazy), and last but not least a TINY boost to cool down speeds per every 50 crewmen. This last boost should be very small but still just enough to make it ever so mildly worth caring about.

This has been asked for since F2P fubar'd the crew mechanic.

It hasn't been addressed. Mainly because it doesn't affect escorts and thats all Cryptic gives a rodent's sphincter about.

Common sense? Check.
Needed? Check.
Overdue? Check.
Chances of it happening? 0. Its the Cryptic Way.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,243
# 29
05-13-2013, 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rinkster View Post
Now, I can appreciate that tinkering with the code may be problematic.

Therefore, I suggest adding a mechanic.
~~~~~~~~~
this is called building yourself into a corner with power creep.
it has to be fixed sooner or later, and before they build more systems on top of the flawed mechanics.
Cryptic.
Figure out and address the players path of least resistance to reward. this one thing is THE consistent factor undermining all your efforts. be that crafting, raids or starbase projects.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,372
# 30
05-13-2013, 10:47 PM
I think Cryptic meant crew to do something like you suggest, they just f'ed it up.
Sometimes I think I play STO just to have stuff to rant about on the forums!

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