Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,181
# 21
09-22-2013, 06:20 PM
Single Cannons with Turrets I just like more then Beams for many reasons. I can kill things faster with them using Cannon skills. Single Cannons are much cheaper to buy from the exchange. They don't drain as much power as beams do. Better for getting 1st place in mission like Gorn Minefield.

Beams with Fire at Will + Attack Pattern Beta are good for team support hitting multiple targets lowering their resistance allowing the rest of the team to do more damage.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,333
# 22
09-22-2013, 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentmaster View Post
I tried single cannons, hoping for some improvement on my bortas (had toyed with them on my Gal-X before, but not systematically tested them).

On an 8-beam tanky TAC-based cruiser setup, beam arrays will far out-strip cannons.

Cannons are useless for the following reasons:

1) less damage output than beams. Damage output falls off much faster at ranges as compared to beams, which maintain more % of their punch at distance.

2) less arc than beams. To get both front and back weapons slots broadsiding a single target you need to be PERFECTLY flat and not moving on a target. They both only have 180 degrees. That means at any given time chances are you are ONLY firing half your weapons on a target -- which still do less gun-for-gun than beam arrays. BAs have wider arc so broadsiding moving targets is better

3) boff skills are screwed for cannons. They need to be dropped one rank across all cannon skills, so that you can start canon: rapid fire at ENS level, CRF2 at LT level, etc. On most cruisers you get 1 LT and 2 ENS boff skills to use. Assuming you use one for TT (a must, honestly, not only for damage boost but for sheild balancing), you're limited to 2 skills, only 1 of which can be canon-related. Whereas if you use beams you get BO, FAW, and can still rock TT.


In short, using SCs is stupid for a cruiser. You can't broadside with them, you're firing half at any time, they're weaker, their damage falls off faster, you can't use any boff skills specific to canons to actually UTILIZE them properly....

SCs shouldn't be in this game until all canon skills drop 1 rank to match beam skills.

If you're doing a cruiser, stick with BAs.
I don't have any problem matching or exceeding damage from beam cruisers in my Fleet Excelsior ( a tac' oriented cruiser) with a SC and Turret setup. A 180' arc isn't a problem for that ship to hold, Im not looking to broadside, just hold my combat in the front 180 of the ship so I can make use of three of my shields and all 8 of my weapons, where beam cruisers really only use two shield sides. Now some of the portlier cruisers... that's another story.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 413
# 23
09-22-2013, 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
I don't have any problem matching or exceeding damage from beam cruisers in my Fleet Excelsior ( a tac' oriented cruiser) with a SC and Turret setup. A 180' arc isn't a problem for that ship to hold, Im not looking to broadside, just hold my combat in the front 180 of the ship so I can make use of three of my shields and all 8 of my weapons, where beam cruisers really only use two shield sides. Now some of the portlier cruisers... that's another story.
I was just about to chime in and say the same. I've tested single cannons on my Fleet Excelsior with an aux2bat build and I was able to put out some impressive damage. I don't normally use a single cannon build but the utility of single cannons should not be dismissed.

..but with that said on an escort where maneuverability isn't an issue I'd personally stick with Dual/Dual Heavy.


U.S.S. Mary Celeste
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 113
# 24
09-23-2013, 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentmaster View Post
I tried single cannons, hoping for some improvement on my bortas (had toyed with them on my Gal-X before, but not systematically tested them).

On an 8-beam tanky TAC-based cruiser setup, beam arrays will far out-strip cannons.

Cannons are useless for the following reasons:

1) less damage output than beams. Damage output falls off much faster at ranges as compared to beams, which maintain more % of their punch at distance.

2) less arc than beams. To get both front and back weapons slots broadsiding a single target you need to be PERFECTLY flat and not moving on a target. They both only have 180 degrees. That means at any given time chances are you are ONLY firing half your weapons on a target -- which still do less gun-for-gun than beam arrays. BAs have wider arc so broadsiding moving targets is better

3) boff skills are screwed for cannons. They need to be dropped one rank across all cannon skills, so that you can start canon: rapid fire at ENS level, CRF2 at LT level, etc. On most cruisers you get 1 LT and 2 ENS boff skills to use. Assuming you use one for TT (a must, honestly, not only for damage boost but for sheild balancing), you're limited to 2 skills, only 1 of which can be canon-related. Whereas if you use beams you get BO, FAW, and can still rock TT.


In short, using SCs is stupid for a cruiser. You can't broadside with them, you're firing half at any time, they're weaker, their damage falls off faster, you can't use any boff skills specific to canons to actually UTILIZE them properly....

SCs shouldn't be in this game until all canon skills drop 1 rank to match beam skills.

If you're doing a cruiser, stick with BAs.
I've probably said this on the forums before, but your statement about Tactical Team is precisely why I've never been happy with the changes they made toward it. They made it go from a garbage skill to a must-have, at the exclusion of Engineering and Science team. Tac Team's automatic Shield Balancing is too much better than the alternatives. I've wanted them to either break free the global cooldown between Tac, Eng and Sci team, or to have them add balancing to all the Team abilities. I really don't care which but I think it would make adding an appropriate Team ability to your ship not be always Tactical Team.

With regard to the actual weapons I'm inclined to agree regarding damage. On a sluggish Cruiser you tend to slide out of ranges with enemies all too often meaning you're at distance range which is not as good for Cannon builds. If you're just sitting and camping on a spot, DHC or DC wins, but again you have the issue of what boff abilities you can load.

As an aside, I always found it odd that Dispersal Patterns were a high tier skill, considering the fact that logically speaking you would think dropping mines is more the realm of a big ship. Just my thoughts.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 25
09-23-2013, 12:16 AM
I just did some testing out of boredom on Holodeck. I was never fully aware of the DPS difference between single cannons and DHCs until now.

So basically, I have two mk XII purple cannons (one single, one DH). This is in orbit over New Romulus:

Unbuffed:
Single Cannon damage: 891 (1021 DPS)
DHC damage: 1406 (1203 DPS)

APA3 + APO3 + TF2
Single Cannon damage: 1608 (2045 DPS)
DHC damage: 3207 (2678 DPS)

That's a difference of 200 DPS. Unbuffed. And with everything blown? 600 DPS!!!! That's insane. And that's just on one set of weapons. The tooltip down on the ground doesn't even come close to preparing you for that. I mean seriously... that's just crazy!

I can get screenshots later. Just thought I'd put that up.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,225
# 26
09-23-2013, 01:25 AM
Up to now I avoided them, but since seeing this thread I decided to try one out on my science toon. He's a drain build so I rely on torpedoes for main damage.

I used to use a DBB up front and a couple of beam arrays in the back. Tetryon is the energy of choice, to aid with shield stripping for the quantum punch and I believe that flow caps skill helps too.

Now I use a single cannon up front and a couple of turrets in the back, and I really like the results. I think they do a better job than beams with keeping shields down so my payload gets delivered. It's a shame I can't use the sub system abilities now but no big loss.
Tion Sorahn - Federation Engineer
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"Something everyone always forgets, all grind is optional"
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,333
# 27
09-23-2013, 08:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
I was just about to chime in and say the same. I've tested single cannons on my Fleet Excelsior with an aux2bat build and I was able to put out some impressive damage. I don't normally use a single cannon build but the utility of single cannons should not be dismissed.

..but with that said on an escort where maneuverability isn't an issue I'd personally stick with Dual/Dual Heavy.

Absolutely correct. Only reason to use single cannons on an escort is because you can't reckon the 45' arc and don't have time to learn it in that one moment. The rest of the time should be building that reckoning skill, its the most important skill in using an escort.
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