Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-03-2010, 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaya View Post
You underestimate the value of torpedoes. Energy weapons do minor damage to hull in comparison with kinetic weapons; but torpedoes damage to shields is not to be dismissed as mere 'spike damage'. There is a reason that photon torpedoes have really high dps, and why they have such long recharge timers, even with multiple tubes... they hurt shields as well as hull.
thats quite wrong every weapon does 10% of its dmg against shields and 100% against hulls [ -range dropoffs] there is no difference between torpes and energy weapons in this behavior.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-03-2010, 10:05 AM
Yeah, I've tried a full cannon loadout (hell, with a turret on the back).

Whenever I used rapidfire I never noticed the loss of damage from torpedoes because I was so in love with the burst of damage, so if I could have 3 BOffs with RF (so only 5 second downtime between RF) I wouldn't bother fitting a torpedo. Without RF, I just felt like the damage, once a shield facing had fallen, was just not going as quickly as it would if I could simply launch a high yield torp volley at it. Or even one torp. Even High Yield I does enough damage with photons that if the guy isn't using engineering team/hazard emitters or brace for impact he's going to feel a lot more hurt. If he decides to polarize hull or reverse shield polarity, he'll feel even less from cannons; and reverse shield polarity is common enough a skill as to not be ignored for pvp's sake.

I don't mind cannons, but I'd rather fit nothing but torpedoes on a ship if the cooldown wasn't killed by doing so. Escorts, of all the ships, have the best success at using torpedoes as dps weapons and not burst damage weapons. If the cruisers feel it's worthy enough to fit torps instead of beam arrays even though their absurdly slow turning radius means they'll only ever use torps once or twice in a fight, why are ships that could be using them every 6-8 seconds thinking of dropping them..

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not able to check the dps stat, but a photon torpedo mk5 has 267 or so dps, a mk5 dual cannon has 180-200 or so, right, and Mk5 heavy duals has 160? If we're going for sheer numbers, I'd say the 267 is better, especially when a escort has the maneuverability to use it consistently.

If we're talking solely PVE here, then a cannon is better argued as a solid replacement for the torpedo, because in PVE the ships are a bit more resilient than PVP, and their angle of approach is less predictable than the 'creatures of habit' piloting ships in PVP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-03-2010, 10:11 AM
While torpedos do less damage against shields, energy weapons don't do less damage to hulls in the same way.

energy weapons will do 100% of their damage to hull, of course it won't be as much as a torpedo will hit for but at a faster rate
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-03-2010, 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaya View Post
...

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not able to check the dps stat, but a photon torpedo mk5 has 267 or so dps, a mk5 dual cannon has 180-200 or so, right, and Mk5 heavy duals has 160? If we're going for sheer numbers, I'd say the 267 is better, especially when a escort has the maneuverability to use it consistently.

If we're talking solely PVE here, then a cannon is better argued as a solid replacement for the torpedo, because in PVE the ships are a bit more resilient than PVP, and their angle of approach is less predictable than the 'creatures of habit' piloting ships in PVP.
dual cannons and dual heavy cannons have the same DPS value. Dual cannons fire four times then cooldown for 1 second, heavies fire twice (per shot is double that of duals) then cooldown for 2 seconds. Since you cannot fire two cannons at the same time, 3 cannons is only an option for dual heavy cannons (discounting under rapid fire, when all cannons fire simultaneously at double rate). Bare stat wise, photon torpedo launchers are the highest DPS weapon per hard point. However this can be skewed depending on your ship equipment load and captains skills. For instance, at full power with two +15 disruptor induction coils my dual cannons/dual heavy cannons far out stripped the DPS value of my photon/quantum torpedo launchers. It was something like 700-800 dps on the cannon vs 500-600 for a launcher.

It also depends on your expected fight length especially once you get into t3+. What's the uptime on rapid fire (which allows all cannons simultaneous fire at double fire rate)? Once you fly an escort past T3 with rapid fire1 and rapid fire 2, the uptime on rapid fire is insane: basically 15 out of every 20 seconds or every time you can turn to strafe a new target you can queue RF.

The disadvantage however, is: what do you take for your tactical officers T1 space powers? Nothing helps cannons and I can't think of anything that's really decent. For that reason I took HYT1 on both Tacticalís and mounted a quantum torp in the third slot. Basically means that every second torpedo is a HYT shot. And in fact I "think" that going that route is a DPS increase (certainly a burst increase) even though the paper doll value starts as a lower number. What we're looking at is this:

3 HV cannons times double damage with 75% uptime
vs
2 HV cannons times double damage with 75% uptime
plus 1 quantum torp time double damage 50% uptime

I just can't seem to wrap my head around the numbers right now without being in game to see the actual stats... maybe I just need more morning coffee... (or just more sleep ). Regardless, it "feels" better running with the quantum torp; you expose the hull and drop in the HYT quantums: both hit and you see a double 3k flash past a mix of 600's followed by BOOM.

Anyways, regarding keeping on target. It's really not that difficult, combat impulse engine with low speed (or hyper with high speed) gives you the extra turn rate on top of escorts already being the fastest turners. Use evasive maneuvers and/or tractor beam to assist keeping on firing plane. You just can't hop over from playing a cruiser and relying on 250 degrees from beams and suddenly know how to fly with cannons. Just takes is a little practice...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-03-2010, 11:31 AM
I've 2 Phaser Double Cannon Mk IV [CrtH] and a Plasma Double Cannon Mk IV [CrtH] up front, and a Quantum Torpedo Mk IV in the rear of my T2 Escort.

Unlike the above poster, I am in practice finding the damage per hit is MUCH higher with 3 vrs 2. Yes there's a CD conflict, but try it... Damage per shot is notably bigger w 3. I suspect there's a graphics conflict at work here, not a CD one.

I absolutely MELT shields to nothing in seconds.

In PvE, I peel off shields, then punch Evasive Maneuvers, swing about at near point-blank, and launch off a double-kiss of the torps.

That wont always finish them, but it doesn't take long at that point.

The only thing I may change is replacing the Quantum for a Plasma for the DoT (if I'm that close anyway).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-03-2010, 12:08 PM
Interesting, what you're describing from play experience is technically impossible

Adding a third cannon can't effect the per shot damage of all other cannons; it just can't. You're adding a third gun, but the first and second ones suddenly start hitting harder?

Also, you're mixing phaser and plasma weapons. What tactical consoles do you use because now you're splitting your percentage multipliers, or not benefiting one of the weapon types. This is why I mount all disruptor cannons and turrets, then use two (in t2) "Console-Tactical-Disruptor Induction Coil Mk4 (+15 disruptor damage)". Those two consoles together give all of my disruptor cannons +30% more damage.

As far as mounting a torpedo in the rear then swinging about to use it, it must be a DPS loss. As long as you're not pointing your nose at the target your three primary cannons are doing zero dps. Not discounting that it works for you, but I'm just thinking that it sounds like you're killing things a lot slower than I was in the same tier 2 escort. Going in vs a Romulan Mogai escort: 10km start cannon stream and activate rapid fire, 5km tractor beam to lock the Mogai and HYT torpedos away, followed shortly by them exploding before I can cycle a second torpedo shot. As in, the escort usually died before I had the need to turn about or reposition for a second pass.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-03-2010, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legatus
As far as mounting a torpedo in the rear then swinging about to use it, it must be a DPS loss. As long as you're not pointing your nose at the target your three primary cannons are doing zero dps.
QFT. The only thing that belongs in that rear slot is a turret. Turrets may be low dps compared to other weapon types, but in an escort your nose should always be on target for the main batteries. That being the case, the rear slots are best filled with weapons that can add dps to the forward arc, which means turrets. Low dps is better than zero dps.

T2, up front I use 1x dual cannon, 1x dual heavy, 1x torp. Later, when there are 4 slots up front I go 2x dual cannon, 1x dual heavy, 1x torp. The burst damage from the torp is incredibly useful.

Consider the common PVE engagement pitting you against three frigate types; BoPs or something similar. On the approach you activate rapid fire and high yield torpedo. The cannons will rapidly melt the first frigate's forward shield, so you can fire the torpedo before it's even down. That frigate is already dead the moment you release the torp, so immediately after firing you switch to the second frigate. While the first one is exploding, the rest of your rapid fire time has melted the second frigate's forward shield and is eating into the hull. With a little practice the first two frigs will be dead before the third one passes you, and dispatching the last one is a simple matter of swinging around, opening up the rear or side shield with cannons and releasing a standard torpedo. At that range the cannons should tear it apart, and the torp is mostly a cinematically pleasing finishing move.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-03-2010, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legatus

The disadvantage however, is: what do you take for your tactical officers T1 space powers? Nothing helps cannons and I can't think of anything that's really decent. For that reason I took HYT1 on both Tacticalís and mounted a quantum torp in the third slot. Basically means that every second torpedo is a HYT shot. And in fact I "think" that going that route is a DPS increase (certainly a burst increase) even though the paper doll value starts as a lower number. What we're looking at is this:
I've been running Tactical Team I in that Ensign slot, looking at the equiped cannon tooltip numbers I've been seeing a 12-13% increase in DPS for 30 sec on my cannons from this skill... That's a nice sustained dps increase.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-03-2010, 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legatus
/snip
The disadvantage however, is: what do you take for your tactical officers T1 space powers?
Not that I'm advocating any advice on slotting weapons, but if one was to go full cannons up front on a T2 escort, Tactical Team I would be the way to go for Ensign Tactical skills. One of the benefits of the skill is adding +x amount to energy weapons (and projectiles as well, but that's not relevant in a cannon only loadout.) The +x is +18 I think, but I'm not sure if that's modified by any player skills.

Expanding on that tangent, I don't run full cannons up front but still load Tactical Team I on my ensign BOFF. My LT BOFF has high yield maxed out and cannon rapid fire. I don't like the torp spread, and the high yield on my LT comes back fast enough that I don't really need high yield on my ensign.

Disclaimer is I don't go for max DPS or anything other than what I find fun to play with.

edit: see that Daniel already posted on Tactical Team. That's what I get for writing posts at work, takes 30 minutes to write 2 paragraphs :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-03-2010, 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TG_Jaedan
I have a hard time believing an extra heavy cannon will come anywhere close to equaling out the damage of one or two high yield quantums getting through someones shield. The point is to learn how to use them. You don't fire torps at shields that are down you fire them before the shields go down.
They do, their are some instances where I can drop a ship before my torpedoes strike home.
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