Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
02-04-2010, 04:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
Anyone who can utilize perfect stealth is overpowered on principle. This is true in any game. If a class, ship or whatever exists that can make itself invisible they will always have the most favourable win/loss ratio in the game when they are played right:

1. Picking your fights.
Being able to decide who to attack and who to avoid a confrontation basicly allows you to only fight when you already know you will win.
Let's say were're talking about a generic MMO where the class thief can turn invisible. If the thief encounters a lonely wizard he can kill him no problem, if the thief encounters two knights he can simply stay hidden and not be killed.
This basicly means that even if he is completely alone someone with perfect stealth can play in a way that retains a positive if not perfect win/loss ratio.

2. Always on the offensive.
If you have perfect stealth you are always on the offensive. You decide when and where to fight, your enemy can never go out to attack you, he can only wait till you attack him. The only way you are ever forced into a defensive position is if you need to defend a static objective that you can't hide along with yourself.
In our generic MMO it plays out like this: A knight wants to kill the thief, but he can't do anything to find him. He can't go on the offensive, so the only way he has to acctually defeat the thief is to somehow get attacked by him first.
If you have perfect stealth you are always on the offensive, you are never in a defensive position where the other person initiates the attack.

3. Impossible to strategize against.
Let's say you do have a situation where there are static objectives on the map, and you are forced to fight to keep them intact or take down those of your enemy. You are still at a huge advantage having perfect stealth, because your opponent doesn't know where to send their forces to effectively counter your attack, all he can do is either guess where you will be or spread his forces so thin that they can't effectively attack or defend anything. Given an equal number of units attacking and defending on each side this gives the side with stealth an overwhelming advantage.
In terms of a generic MMO, if 5 knights fight 5 thieves and each side has 3 towers to defend then the knights have absolutely no way of defending theirs They don't know which one will be attacked, they don't know which ones th enemy is defending. They don't know if the enemy is traveling in a large force or in small teams. Also the thieves can respond to an attack, because they see it coming before it happens, the knights can only respond when its already too late.
If you have stealth then you deprive your opponent of any chance to use strategy against you, the only thing they can do is go in full force and hope they can accomplish their objectives faster than the stealthers.
I spot cloaked klingons and im a klingon Tac officer with NO sp in any scanner skills, infact i dont even HAVE scanner skills, If you LOOK for klingons (pump up all power to aux and run scans and charged particles) you find and decloak klingons with ease, if you do this continuously we cant even drop within 10km of you without being discovered.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
02-04-2010, 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconnaise
The only relevant issue in this thread is the actual detection radius. I think a ceiling of 10km on the radius is fine as long as they have the right deflector and or skills tweaked. It would make things more interesting on my klingon but wouldn't make cloak a liability.
they already have that..the OP just can not graps the fact that you have to train the right skills and equip the right ship for it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
02-04-2010, 07:31 AM
I'm still astounded that players are *****ing about the Klingons ability to cloak. The Klingons have only had this technology since the creation of the genre.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
02-04-2010, 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baaddare View Post
they already have that..the OP just can not graps the fact that you have to train the right skills and equip the right ship for it.
Why should you have to? Why should the federation have to waste an entire ship and character to counter something that Klingons get for free?

Besides, if you're so smart then lay it out. Give me the exact skills, setups and strategies that are used to decloak Klingons at a useful range and that will allow me to test your claims, and if they are true say "You're right" - but you can't do that can you? Your point is not to educate, or to make an argument, but to mislead and annoy people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I'm still astounded that players are *****ing about the Klingons ability to cloak. The Klingons have only had this technology since the creation of the genre.
True, there have also been ways to find a cloaked ship and fight it ever since the creation of the genre. Where are they ingame? I mean even in the StarTrek movies there are two seperate fights where the Enterprise destroys a ship that can fire while cloaked. There are many more instances in the various shows where a ship uses a modified torpedo a detection grid or some kind of energy pulse to decloak an enemy. In another TNG episode they kill a cloaked probe by flying into the atmosphere of a planet and looking for changes in air pressure around the cloaked ship.

There are dozens of ways to find and destroy cloaked ships, Cloaking in the show is useful, but not anywhere near as overwhelmingly powerful as in this game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
02-04-2010, 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
Besides, if you're so smart then lay it out. Give me the exact skills, setups and strategies that are used to decloak Klingons at a useful range and that will allow me to test your claims, and if they are true say "You're right" - but you can't do that can you? Your point is not to educate, or to make an argument, but to mislead and annoy people
Try - Charged Particle burst with a powerful sensor array and more than 25 in AUX. This will be limited to Science ships at T2 (which is good it gives you a reason to have them), but by T3 anyone can have a Science BO with this skill on their ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
02-04-2010, 09:42 AM
The range on it isn't enough to counter anything that's not already attacking you. Also it doesn't at all help against Klingon ships that simply hit engine batter + evasive maneuvers, get 15km away from you, then cloak and wait for repairs so you can never finish them off.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
02-04-2010, 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
The range on it isn't enough to counter anything that's not already attacking you. Also it doesn't at all help against Klingon ships that simply hit engine batter + evasive maneuvers, get 15km away from you, then cloak and wait for repairs so you can never finish them off.
I've used it to decloak ships at 10km away. If that's not enough for you I'm sorry.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
02-04-2010, 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I'm still astounded that players are *****ing about the Klingons ability to cloak. The Klingons have only had this technology since the creation of the genre.
Wait till Romulans are added to the mix, oh the debate that will follow....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
02-04-2010, 10:01 AM
I have not played a Klingon, but I have fought several long boring battles against Klingons. I believe the cloaking device is overpowered, at least at my level. I have seen too many crippled Klingons escape into a cloak with less than 10% of their hull remaining to not believe that cloaking itself is overpowered. If cloaking devices went offline below 25% or 35% it would be different. I don't know if there is a cooldown for cloaking after you decloak, but if there is it doesn't seem to be long enough. Having bridge officers with the ability to detect cloaked vessels might also help.
PvP can be very exciting, but most of the time it is very boring to me. If there is no science vessel among the Federation vessels it gets even more boring. Nothing kills my gaming mood like having to wait 10-15 minutes for the Klingons to position themselves around us for a 2 minute engagement which ends with half the Klingons running away into their cloak, and then waiting another 10-15 minutes for them to build up their courage for another attack. Last night we starting flying in a single file line around the zone just to trying to draw them out, and it still took over 5 minutes before they attacked. As things stand now Klingons completely control the pace of space PvP, and the only thing a Federation captain can do to speed things up is to fly off on his own while waiting to be destroyed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70
02-04-2010, 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I'm still astounded that players are *****ing about the Klingons ability to cloak. The Klingons have only had this technology since the creation of the genre.
It's not that they don't understand or appreciate that fact , they even accept as part of the gameplay. They like it just fine when it's a mindless preprogramed AI doing it . When you put a player at the controls of such a vessel , suddenly it's OP. That and the lack of a true understanding of how to play the vessel they are in.
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