Go Back   Star Trek Online > Feedback > Romulan Gameplay
Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Republic Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,280
# 41
02-17-2014, 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by revandarklighter View Post
Your opinion is not proof.
Well, of course it's not.

But

When you say "All S are P"

and I provide a concrete example of an S which is not P, ...

Go back and review the rules of inference.

Fvillhu s'Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) Praetor of the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann
Tal'Diann = KDF-allied Romulan Republic Fleet / Tal-Diann = Fed-allied Romulan Republic Fleet
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,386
# 42
02-17-2014, 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
Well, of course it's not.

But

When you say "All S are P"

and I provide a concrete example of an S which is not P, ...

Go back and review the rules of inference.
Lets not use split hairs over hyperbole here. When folks say 'all', such as in 'all romulans are manipulative and untrustworthy' it doesn't mean it literally. Finding a few scattered instances of Romulans acting against the grain does not mean that the culturally natural way for romulans to act is like the Romulan Republic does in STO. It just means that (like the Federation and Klingons) the RSE wasn't a homogenous hivemind. We have numerous examples of federation officers, acting treacherously, even traitorously-perhaps even more examples than we do of good-hearted romulans. Ditto for the Klingons. It doesn't indicate a general trend.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,280
# 43
02-17-2014, 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
Lets not use split hairs over hyperbole here. When folks say 'all', such as in 'all romulans are manipulative and untrustworthy' it doesn't mean it literally. Finding a few scattered instances of Romulans acting against the grain does not mean that the culturally natural way for romulans to act is like the Romulan Republic does in STO. It just means that (like the Federation and Klingons) the RSE wasn't a homogenous hivemind. We have numerous examples of federation officers, acting treacherously, even traitorously-perhaps even more examples than we do of good-hearted romulans. Ditto for the Klingons. It doesn't indicate a general trend.
Conflation of the Tal'Shiar with the Rihanh is your mistake. Please, seriously, watch the two TOS episodes which featured Rihanh. Take that depiction as the norm, not the distortion of later series which focused primarily on Tal'Shiar agents, not Romulan Star Navy personnel, not Romulan scientists, not Romulan civilians (sure, some were featured, and I urge you to pay attention to them, rather than the Tal'Shiar, when it comes to the later series). And please, seriously, learn:
What We Are.

Fvillhu s'Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) Praetor of the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann
Tal'Diann = KDF-allied Romulan Republic Fleet / Tal-Diann = Fed-allied Romulan Republic Fleet
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,386
# 44
02-17-2014, 10:27 PM
In the entirety of TNG, there was only one mention of the Tal Shiar, and she wasn't even on screen (being dead), so everything Romulans do in TNG-that's the Navy. Sela(probably), Tomalak, Taris, Toreth(explicitly) etc-all Navy. DS9 had plenty of Romulan government officials in it as well. There really wasn't a consistant difference in demeanor between the lot of them. Heck, in some cases it was the Tal Shiar that were nicer than the Military-just compare Tomalak and his crew to the Tal Shiar in the Dominion prison camp. Fact of the matter is, the purple pajama-wearing romans of TOS only appeared in two episodes, and were quickly and rather drastically retconned into being something completely different.

I think that all this is pretty well established in the shows at least, perhaps this is different in the Star Trek EU (which I suspect you have no small fondness of), but I haven't seen anything in the Trek EU I have dipped my toes into that really contradicts it.

Last edited by catoblepasbeta; 02-17-2014 at 10:48 PM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,280
# 45
02-17-2014, 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
In the entirety of TNG, there was only one mention of the Tal Shiar, and she wasn't even on screen (being dead), so everything Romulans do in TNG-that's the Navy. Sela(probably), Tomalak, Taris, Toreth(explicitly) etc-all Navy. DS9 had plenty of Romulan government officials in it as well. There really wasn't a consistant difference in demeanor between the lot of them. Heck, in some cases it was the Tal Shiar that were nicer than the Military-just compare Tomalak and his crew to the Tal Shiar in the Dominion prison camp. Fact of the matter is, the purple pajama-wearing romans of TOS only appeared in two episodes, and were quickly and rather drastically retconned into being something completely different.

I think that all this is pretty well established in the shows at least, perhaps this is different in the Star Trek EU (which I suspect you have no small fondness of), but I haven't seen anything in the Trek EU I have dipped my toes into that really contradicts it.
Purple pajama? I think your dysfunction has grown to the point that it has you hallucinating.

Fvillhu s'Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) Praetor of the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann
Tal'Diann = KDF-allied Romulan Republic Fleet / Tal-Diann = Fed-allied Romulan Republic Fleet
Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 714
# 46
02-18-2014, 12:37 AM
I think what proto is trying to say is that just because what you think of as "evul romulans" isnt ALL romulans nor is what you see on screen an example of romulan's behavior. it should be noted that the romulan on screen where what the PLOT needed them to be. Sela, tomalok, and the others NEEDED to be villians for the plot. that DOES NOT mean ALL romulans are that way nor does it mean ALL of the navy in that way either. remember the Romulan captain troi was forced to work with? she didnt seem like the others. she was a good captain. a good navy romulan officer. Also admiral Jurok was willing to help starfleet if it meant keeping his people out of a bloody war and give his daughter a peaceful future.....

there are good romulans and in an effort prove your point, youre ignoring them....
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,386
# 47
02-18-2014, 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
Purple pajama? I think your dysfunction has grown to the point that it has you hallucinating.
And the blue pajamas. Can't forget the hideous blue pajamas either. The bright purple/dark pink ones definitely have the edge in eye-meltingly hideous though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisbrown12009 View Post
I think what proto is trying to say is that just because what you think of as "evul romulans" isnt ALL romulans nor is what you see on screen an example of romulan's behavior. it should be noted that the romulan on screen where what the PLOT needed them to be. Sela, tomalok, and the others NEEDED to be villians for the plot. that DOES NOT mean ALL romulans are that way nor does it mean ALL of the navy in that way either. remember the Romulan captain troi was forced to work with? she didnt seem like the others. she was a good captain. a good navy romulan officer. Also admiral Jurok was willing to help starfleet if it meant keeping his people out of a bloody war and give his daughter a peaceful future.....

there are good romulans and in an effort prove your point, youre ignoring them....
Toreth? She had some rather personal issues with the Tal Shiar that can't be expected of every Romulan captain. They killed her father (so she has a personal vendetta) and her fleet was almost destroyed in another instance by the incompetence of another Tal Shiar agent. She still had no problem having her first officer gunned down the moment he was revealed as a traitor, and seemed to relish the thought of having the 'major' tortured and executed. Not exactly the best example.

As for admiral jarok, he did lie to picard, and blew his ship up to avoid it being captured and beign a technological advantage to the enemy. He was willing to sacrifice everything for the empire but he wasn't doing it because he necessarily wanted to be a federation citizen, or because he wanted to become a federation citizen. Definitely one of the nicest Romulans out there.

What you and proto can't seem to get is that I'm not arguing that all Romulans are 'evul' but rather that most Romulans are bad guys, and that it's no use lumping all the Romulans you didn't like into the 'Tal Shiar' pile and saying that the good ones are the 'true' representatives. of romulan behavior', because that has been proven to be false. The truth of the matter is more complex. Most Romulans have their good spots-even Tomalak, one of the worst-was willing to go through hell and high water to rescue two Romulan spies, so he definitely cared about his crew. But several traits, cultural or not, seem to be rather prevalent in Romulans-arrogance, willingness to do extremely reprehensible things to their enemies to get the job done, and a distrust of outsiders.

When watching the Klingons on the shows, we see all sorts as well, even peaceful types like Gorkon, or treacherous-almost 'Romulan' types like the Duras. They certainly don't run Klingon culture, but they are still Klingons, for all the world to see them. Their presence doesn't invalidate the honorable warrior types we see that make up the majority.

What Cryptic has done has taken the few examples like Jarok and extrapolated it to cover ever Romulan that isn't Tal Shiar. This is just ass shallow as making the Romulan faction as mustache twirlingly evil like the Tal Shiar now is. The Romulan Empire has never been as wholly evil as the Tal Shiar is in-game, but the Romulan Republic is by no means representative either.

There just weren't any good narrative reasons for what they did. And we know why they did it-in an interview when asked why we weren't playing tal shiar 'evil' romulans, the answer was essentially that evil factions don't sell as well. It's not even consistant with STO. Look at the Romulans before New Romulus was released, or even before LOR was released. The Tal Shiar wasn't the military wing of the empire, The Tal Shiar was in on the Hobus incident, but wasn't feeding its citizens to shroom people. The Empress wasn't in on Hakeev's schemes (in fact her backstory for STO seems to indicate she hates the Tal Shiar) You had the occasionally sympathetic moment like in 'The Return' where you can get called out by the Romulan captain (not sure if she's been retconned into being RR or not yet). In general Cryptic has pretty much hammered out the Romulan situation into a simplistic white hate vs black hat affair that doesn't do Romulans justice, whether you want to be a 'good' Romulan like Jarok or a more typical 'bad' Romulan like Tomalak.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 641
# 48
02-18-2014, 01:51 PM
I think we should paint the tal shiar npc's skin black, dye their hair white and have them start worshipping a demonic spider goddess. Why? Because frankly they've hit that level of trope. D'Tan and his group are equally laughable imo but Craptic has made its opinion known and theres plenty of proof out there that people do indeed enjoy playing villains... but they want to ignore that and keep everyone laughably white hat wearing paladins
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:11 PM.