Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-04-2010, 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
It's persistent in that the world is there when you come back. Your ship remains, your items remain, and other people have been progressing while you've been away. If the server restarts, everyone's location, items, etc., are where they were wen it closed.

Any gameworld that remains and continues forward when you aren't playing is persistent.
Except that doesn't apply to STO. Players have no effect on the game world, if they do it is erased when they zone.

By the way, your discription even fits games like Diablo II multiplayer. I am guessing you wouldn't call that an MMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
By your logic WoW isn't persistent because many of its most important locations share the same trait as STO instances; the instance resets or ceases to be when you leave.

Instances aren't persistent, but the overall game is.
I don't even call WoW a traditional MMORPG. It retains quite a few elements of a persistent world, but as you pointed out its dungeons are instanced. However, why do you compare this game to WoW to make your point? That just makes my point for me, because this entire game is instanced, at least in WoW it is just limited to dungeons and raids.

When I am on WoW doing non-dungeon content I am either socialising, farming crafting materials, or questing. None of this is done in an instance and all of it is effected directly by other players, and I still don't go so far as to say WoW is "traditional".

In STO everything you do is done as part of an instance, and if you want to completely bypass the effect other players have on your world, you just turn off open grouping. It is, in my mind, a co-operative RPG that you essentially play like a single player game unless you want to interact with others.

In WoW I can not stop someone competing against me for spawns and resources, players can kill me anywhere if I am on a PvP server or PvP flagged on a PvE server, and I can not stop someone entering the zone I am in unless I specifically go in a dungeon. In STO I can choose to minimize the chat box, toggle /lfg off, and it's like I am playing a single-player game. Co-operative.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-04-2010, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun.Devil
I don't see how the use of instances make the game world any more or less persistent that other game worlds. In other MMOs, you similarly have no ability to change the world. In all MMOs that I know of, MOBs and destructible objects respawn and instances reset. That is the nature of MMOs, isn't it?
Maybe what you're missing is this.. In a good traditional MMO a persistent world changes depending on the effect you and others have.. Let me give you a popular example.. In World of ******** you can PvP fight over Wintergrasp.. The winner not only owns that fortress for 2 hours, they also receives perks like special instanced mobs ONLY available to them, vendors and experience bonuses as well.. In STO you have no such thing.. Because of Cryptic''s engine there will never be a "true" sense of battle between Klingons and the Federation.. NO planets to fight over, No sectors to own.. OH WELL
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-04-2010, 12:27 PM
The overall game design is traditional MMO, especially "traditional Cryptic", in that it's quest based, linear PvE with optional instanced PvP and no real depth. That is, just like every other MMORPG, you need the fix the windmill and kill 10 spiders and find grandma's lost necklace, none of which has any impact on the overall game world. (Okay, so it's fix the warp core, kill 10 Romulans and find the data probe, in this case.)

Combat mechanics, however, are non-traditional, as is the way you skill up. I enjoy the combat.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-04-2010, 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thominoh View Post
Maybe what you're missing is this.. In a good traditional MMO a persistent world changes depending on the effect you and others have..
Pfft. I wish. Your WOW example represents maybe 1% of WOW's content, and it took them, what, 4 years to get to that point? The other 99% is the real traditional MMORPG content: fill-in-the-blank quests that have no world impact.

So the fact that STO is the same way is, in fact, traditional MMO design.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-04-2010, 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannigan
honestly what's so bad about instancing?
Who said instancing is bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannigan
Guild Wars
NCSoft said Guild Wars is not an MMORPG, from the beginning. They invented the term CORPG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannigan
No spawn camping, mobs were always there as were quest targets. No issues doing my missions / quests, nobody killing the mobs I needed slowing down my mission progress.
These are part and parcel of traditional MMORPGs, as well as a social community and player economy. If you don't like these things then you would've truly hated MMOs pre-WoW.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-04-2010, 12:35 PM
small sidetrack..

honestly what's so bad about instancing? I remember the day I picked up GuildWars.. this was after an extended amount of play in FFXI. I was in the GW beta but decided not to get the game due to the henchmen not being good enough to warrant use but otherwise I loved it... so years later when Nightfall came out and introduced heroes I dove back into GW and fell in love with it again.. especially the instances.

after FFXI, WOW, SWG, and EQ2.. GW's instances were a breath of fresh air. No spawn camping, mobs were always there as were quest targets. No issues doing my missions / quests, nobody killing the mobs I needed slowing down my mission progress. I could group up with friends and help them or get help from them on various missions and have zero outside interference. While I can see *why* people say the GW heavy instancing system is atypical of MMO's.. I have yet to see how it's bad, in fact to me, it's better.

but generally when people talk about it it's typically with a rather heavy air of disdain. Never quite understood that... IMO GW really had only two failings: No auction house system for selling of rare drops / materials and no real crafting system (but I got over that quickly).

edit: I tend to describe GW as a COMMOG, not much RP in any online games these days.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
02-04-2010, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulfhedjinn View Post
These are part and parcel of traditional MMORPGs, as well as a social community and player economy. If you don't like these things then you would've truly hated MMOs pre-WoW.
the first MMO I played was FFXI.. loved it. But the community at the time (this was back when the game was new) was wayyyyy different than anything you see in MMO's these days. Not saying you didn't have players you'd sooner push in front of a bus but they were few and far between in FFXI. (at least back then)

Contrast that with the current 800lb gorilla.. easily 70% of that games community I would just *love* to launch into the nearest sun.

GW took it a step further. Sure people are there but if you have a good build and good hero builds you certainly don't need them... so grouping became a truly co-op thing as opposed to a mandatory thing to do to get to the loot pinata of the evening.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-04-2010, 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun.Devil
I don't see how the use of instances make the game world any more or less persistent that other game worlds. In other MMOs, you similarly have no ability to change the world. In all MMOs that I know of, MOBs and destructible objects respawn and instances reset. That is the nature of MMOs, isn't it?
That's exactly what I was thinking. I know some mobs take longer to respawn.....but they....respawn....hence, reseting the 'instance'.....

Am I wrong??

Arc
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-04-2010, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannigan
the first MMO I played was FFXI.. loved it. But the community at the time (this was back when the game was new) was wayyyyy different than anything you see in MMO's these days. Not saying you didn't have players you'd sooner push in front of a bus but they were few and far between in FFXI. (at least back then)

Contrast that with the current 800lb gorilla.. easily 70% of that games community I would just *love* to launch into the nearest sun.

GW took it a step further. Sure people are there but if you have a good build and good hero builds you certainly don't need them... so grouping became a truly co-op thing as opposed to a mandatory thing to do to get to the loot pinata of the evening.
I agree. I do enjoy playing that 800lbs gorilla, but the community in it is the worst in any MMO I have ever played, which is why I typically only socialise and play with my guild mates and why I am looking for a new game.

But to say instancing is "a step further" is rather obscuring the issue, I don't consider "co-operative play" superior but rather just a different path. Open, social worlds and semi-private worlds have their own pros and cons, it just depends on who you are (or in my case, what mood you are in). However, open worlds are certainly the "traditional" type, per topic.

I enjoyed Guild Wars a whole lot, it was an amazing game, but I just missed the sense of community and the way players actually had an impact on the world. I long for the day we see another game like Star Wars Galaxies with an entirely player-based economy, player cities as social and PvP hubs, a mix of instanced and non-instanced dungeons etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanic
That's exactly what I was thinking. I know some mobs take longer to respawn.....but they....respawn....hence, reseting the 'instance'.....

Am I wrong??
Yes you are. Part of the fun in those games is coming across other players in the wild, and either competing with them for spawns and resources or teaming up with them to tackle the world together, or outright killing each other if you must.

Not to mention things like non-instanced player cities, but this has been rare (but successful) in MMOs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
02-04-2010, 12:56 PM
Quote:
I enjoyed Guild Wars a whole lot, it was an amazing game, but I just missed the sense of community and the way players actually had an impact on the world. I long for the day we see another game like Star Wars Galaxies with an entirely player-based economy, player cities as social and PvP hubs, a mix of instanced and non-instanced dungeons etc.
SWG does bring back memories.. and despite it's lack of (story centric) content it wasn't bad. The theme parks were ideas they just didn't take far enough IMO... sad what they did to it. Missing what it was made it impossible to play what it had become.. to date it's the only MMO where I actually threw away the disks after quitting the game. I expect these game worlds to change but that was just too much.

anywho we now return this thread to it's regularly scheduled topic.
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