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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-04-2010, 01:53 PM
I have wondered and yet not wondered at the fact that teams in KvK always seem to leave somebody visible to attack. It just seems to be player consensus that that's how the game will go - were it not that way, then designer intervention would likely be needed there as well. As it turns out, if one side of a KvK DOES decide to delay the game, the "powerup" approach would greatly benefit the side that got to the artifact first, forcing both teams to converge on the center at the three-minute mark if there has been no action by then.

As for the fedball, it's just another form of overly defensive gameplay (i.e. turtling) which can and does lead to similar problems. Perhaps you're on to something, in that the artifact should simply give a large powerup to whatever player picks it up - maybe a combination of increased damage as well as providing cloak detection. Whoever gets to it will have a significant advantage and be able to break a standoff, or else both sides will be forced to engage each other for control of the spawn area - that's the whole point, and I think it could be a better variant of the solution.

So, what do you think of having the artifact simply give a large damage plus detection boost to the player who picks it up?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-04-2010, 02:06 PM
The solution here is learn how to counter cloak. I did and wow what a difference it makes. I ain't gonna re-post how, as you can easily apply your forum skills to search my posts. But here's a hint, Don't just ball up somewhere and wait for them. Have one of the Science ships lead the way and search for the enemy as a group.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-04-2010, 02:36 PM
I agree that proper use of countercloaking tools on the Fed side is vital and can make a significant impact on the problem. However, space is large. Very large. A detection range of 10km as you suggest in your other thread amounts to a total volume on the order of 10^3 cubic km. Yes, I realize space is not a cube, but the order-of-magnitude effects are the important part here. An arena is roughly 100km on a side. That's 100^3 cubic km. This means that a science vessel optimally equipped, running full aux and sensors, can cover approximately (10^3)/(100^3) of it, or 1/1000th. 0.1%. And that's assuming that the Klingons aren't running full aux or actively trying to avoid the science vessel. In short, while it definitely makes a difference, it will not solve the problem, just make the Klingons wait a little farther away.

A more comprehensive reframing of the issue, though, would be to simply say that the problem is rewarding turtle gameplay. For Feds, that's a defensive ball; for Klingons, it's perpetual cloak. It settles into a comfortable but extremely boring equilibrium where neither side is willing to make the first move, instead waiting for the other side to get bored and get sloppy... the inherent problem is it means somebody got bored, which is never a good thing in an entertainment product.

The current solution I'm proposing (revised from the original) is to simply spawn the 3-minute powerup as one that gives a giant boost to detection and damage - equally beneficial to both sides in breaking the stalemate, or forcing a confrontation near the powerup spawn.

Math edit: 10km radius (instead of diameter) yields ~0.8% coverage, not 0.1% as mentioned above. Conclusion unchanged.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Add an option for long range enemy ship direction finder skill..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-04-2010, 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgecase View Post
I agree that proper use of countercloaking tools on the Fed side is vital and can make a significant impact on the problem. However, space is large. Very large. A detection range of 10km as you suggest in your other thread amounts to a total volume on the order of 10^3 cubic km. Yes, I realize space is not a cube, but the order-of-magnitude effects are the important part here. An arena is roughly 100km on a side. That's 100^3 cubic km. This means that a science vessel optimally equipped, running full aux and sensors, can cover approximately (10^3)/(100^3) of it, or 1/1000th. 0.1%. And that's assuming that the Klingons aren't running full aux or actively trying to avoid the science vessel. In short, while it definitely makes a difference, it will not solve the problem, just make the Klingons wait a little farther away.

A more comprehensive reframing of the issue, though, would be to simply say that the problem is rewarding turtle gameplay. For Feds, that's a defensive ball; for Klingons, it's perpetual cloak. It settles into a comfortable but extremely boring equilibrium where neither side is willing to make the first move, instead waiting for the other side to get bored and get sloppy... the inherent problem is it means somebody got bored, which is never a good thing in an entertainment product.

The current solution I'm proposing (revised from the original) is to simply spawn the 3-minute powerup as one that gives a giant boost to detection and damage - equally beneficial to both sides in breaking the stalemate, or forcing a confrontation near the powerup spawn.

Math edit: 10km radius (instead of diameter) yields ~0.8% coverage, not 0.1% as mentioned above. Conclusion unchanged.
Still wont help. Just means 1 klingon with 100% aux will sit just at the edge of grid (25km away or so) if you see him he has plenty of time to get away, if you dont he just waits for the effects to ware off and then the rest move into attack.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-04-2010, 02:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by troggbl View Post
Still wont help. Just means 1 klingon with 100% aux will sit just at the edge of grid (25km away or so) if you see him he has plenty of time to get away, if you dont he just waits for the effects to ware off and then the rest move into attack.
Honestly, if it coaxed out the attack, then this solution would be successful. The point is to break the stalemate.

Of course, I also recognize that if this situation does not leave the powerup holder at an advantage, then nobody would pick it up - perhaps the powerup should also provide a boost to systems power in that case so the powered-up individual can full impulse around to where the enemies are hiding/balling and take advantage of the buff before it wears off.

I was thinking it would last 30-60 seconds, which should be easily enough to FI a 25km bubble around the map and pick some people up. Since the hiding players can't see you coming outside 25km either, they couldn't effectively avoid you like they can by hovering at 15km outside standard cloak detection abilities.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-04-2010, 03:16 PM
It would have to be some major boost to impulse power to find them, and close the 25km before the power finished tho.
And a major boost to Aux, that keeps full impulse from draining it if you hoped to actively find them while zipping around.

And if it coaxed an attack out of them, thats because after waiting a couple of minutes for you to get to the spawn point, use it and then wait for it to end (about 5 minutes total now) they'll finally have a team ready and zoned in.

If there griefers, its gonna make no difference, they'll still do it (spread out, it'll take you 15 kills, x3 minutes of the detection run, assuming you manage to find one everytime you use it)

Plus it would have to be usable by all, or it'll just get shot down as being OP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-04-2010, 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgrind24
Simple solution. Don't do deathmatch. Do objective PvP, ground PvP.
you are an idiot. Balance in PvP matters and as such there should be balances along the way as nothing is ever balanced on release and never balanced many years in.

Stop qqing and worrying about being nerfed and produce comments that deserve proper feedback.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-04-2010, 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiss View Post
you are an idiot. Balance in PvP matters and as such there should be balances along the way as nothing is ever balanced on release and never balanced many years in.

Stop qqing and worrying about being nerfed and produce comments that deserve proper feedback.
Name calling huh? Anyone that does alot of, and is good at PvP has no problem with cloak, Fed or Klingon.

You should really look up what QQ means. You're the one doing it, not I. If you don't want to deal with cloak do ground PvP or objective PvP. It's simple....Understand?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-04-2010, 03:42 PM
What I think should happen is that Klingon cruisers get slightly better shields/hull and lose cloak ability or have cloak only last for xx seconds. That gives Fed ships something to go after, but will also mean shooting at the tanks until the DPS decloak, this maintains the element of surprise that Klingons are supposed to have and also prevents cloak griefing. The whole point of cruisers is to absorb damage, not decloak and fire off a ton of burst damage.
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