Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 418
Just to be clear on overcapping and resistance to weapon power drain. I just spent a bit of time testing quite a few things. There is NO hidden max cap from which weapon power cost is subtracted from. 125 is the max in which weapon power is subtracted from. If you go above 125 it's of no help for increasing the Min value. Anything over 125 is reserve power which will increase the Peak value. So this reserve above 125 is important. If you are at 135 weapon power and use an ability to increase weapon power by say 30, the Peak value is increased by 30. However the Min value will stay the same as you are subtracting weapon power cost from 125. Note that this is 40 in reserve in this example. So the Peak value will increase by 40.

Let me try to explain this a bit. First what's the minimum weapon power level and how exactly does weapon power drain work. Here's some testing i did.

-Note- This testing would be worse case scenario with all weapons in sync and firing 100% of the time.

-Note- My leech console will give me 16 weapon power when used except as noted

-Note- This is primarily the power use during a firing cycle and not the recover after a cycle.

-Note- I am not concerned with Dual Heavy Cannons as their behavior is completely different.

-Note- Fire at Will costs 12.5 weapon power and not 10. 2.5 of which can not be lowered by resistance to power drain nor reduced weapon power cost from weapons command.

-Update- to explain Min, Peak, and Average values.

Min=When you initially fire all weapons this is the value you should see. This is (Min(weapon power level, 125))-weapon power cost. Remember 1 weapon has no cost. You may see 5 or 10 above this value. If you use 5 beams you will see this value. But with 8 beams it's virtually impossible to see this value.

Peak Value=This is the peak value you see during a firing cycle. (Min(weapon power level, 125))-weapon power cost. Then include leech and any reserve power above 135. Basically this is Min+Leech+reserve. Or Min+Leech+EPTW for example and not to exceed 125. Obviously Max after a firing cycle is cap and you at times hit this cap during a firing cycle as well. But this is not what it means for these tests. Weapon power will increase from the Min value. This is the max value it achieves consistently of the Min value and holds at a steady rate. You will however hit cap even during a firing cycle at times. And at times even hit 0 weapon power. (observable)

Average value=This is the average value your weapon power will be at during a firing cycle. At the beginning of a firing cycle you should be at Min(weapon power, 125). Once the cycle starts you will do down to Min. During the firing cycle you will go up to Peak. So i'm going to assign this value for an average. (Min(Weapon power, 125)+Min+Peak)/3. This number can be rather subjective and isn't meant to be exact in any way.

-Note- Damage via weapon power level. There is a long formula for this. But let me simplify it to make it easy. Go into non sector space and check your weapons tooltip (not the one on the weapons tray). Now do this: listed weapon damage*weapon power*0.02 Let me show some examples.

My weapon tooltip says 480
at 25 weapon power i do 480*25*0.02=240 damage
at 50 weapon power i do 480*50*0.02=480 damage
at 75 weapon power i do 480*75*0.02=720 damage
at 100 weapon power i do 480*100*0.02=960 damage
at 125 weapon power i do 480*125*0.02=1,200 damage

As you can see weapon power level will greatly effect your damage. This first test basically shows how badly your weapon power levels are effected even when weapon power is at 124. Consequently this would also explain why over 50% of the players can't even achieve 10k dps. Not pointing fingers here as the whole purpose of my testing is to benefit everyone and most especially the ones i did more or less point to. Apologies.

Leech=16 power drain

Using 8 beams for 70 weapon power cost.

Test 1A autofiring
Weapon power=124
Min power=54
Peak power=54
Average power=77
With Leach
Weapon power=140
Min power=55
Peak power=70
Average power=83
power goes down to 55 then up to 70 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Test 1B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=124
Min power=37
Peak power=37
Average power=66
With Leech
Weapon power=140
Min power=38
Peak power=53
Average power=72
power goes down to 38 then up to 53 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Here's a video of test 1 http://youtu.be/hWEVM98MaCc Note that it includes autofiring and Fire at Will. Just a short sample. No leech.

Increased weapon power by 11

Test 2A autofiring
Weapon power=135
Min power=55
Peak power=65
Average power=82
With Leech
Weapon power=151
Min power=55
Peak power=81
Average power=87
power goes down to 55 then up to 81 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Test 2B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=135
Min power=38
Peak power=48 (47 observed)
Average power=70
With Leech
Weapon power=151
Min power=38
Peak power=64 (63 observed)
Average power=75
power goes down to 38 then up to 64 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Increased weapon power by 5

Test 3A autofiring
Weapon power=140
Min power=55
Peak power=70
Average power=83
With Leech
Weapon power=156
Min power=55
Peak power=86
Average power=89
power goes down to 55 then up to 86 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Test 3B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=140
Min power=38
Peak power=53 (52 observed)
Average power=72
With Leech
Weapon power=156
Min power=38
Peak power=69 (68 observed)
Average power=77
power goes down to 38 then up to 69 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Next i swap to an Elite Fleet Reinforced warp core for more weapon power. This is the shield->weapon power one. Leech=17 weapon power now as shield increases by 16 for 1.2 additional weapon power.

Test 4A autofiring
Weapon power=151
Min power=55
Peak power=81
Average power=87
With Leech
Weapon power=168
Min power=55
Peak power=98
Average power=93
power goes down to 55 then up to 98 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Test 4B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=151
Min power=38
Peak power=64 (63 observed)
Average power=75
With Leech
Weapon power=168
Min power=38
Peak power=81 (80 observed)
Average power=81
power goes down to 38 then up to 81 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Increased weapon power by 4.

Test 5A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=55
Peak power=85
Average power=88
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=55
Peak power=102
Average power=94
power goes down to 65 then up to 102 at a speed based on power regen rate

Test 5B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=38
Peak power=68 (67 observed)
Average power=77
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=38
Peak power=85 (84 observed)
Average power=82
power goes down to 38 then up to 85 at a speed based on power regen rate

Now what else can we do to increase the min power level. There's several things really. Use less weapons or use a weapon that uses no weapon power. Or use warp cores that have resistance to weapon power drain and or Nadion inversion (eng ability). Or weapons cruiser command. Let's try the weapon first.

Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam (0 weapon power cost)

Test 6A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=65
Peak power=95 (94 observed)
Average power=95
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=65
Peak power=112 (111 observed)
Average power=101
power goes down to 65 then up to 112 at a speed based on power regen rate

Test 6B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=50
Peak power=80 (81 observed)
Average power=85
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=50
Peak power=97 (98 observed)
Average power=91
power goes down to 50 then up to 97 at a speed based on power regen rate

Note that the Experimental Rom Plasma Beam does seem to cost 1 Now that's a good question. Try firing 1 other weapon along with the experimental and the weapon power use will be 5 when it should be 0 as the 1st one should be free and experimental should use 0. Makes no sense.

Next i'll test the cruiser weapons command for 25% less weapon power cost along with Experimental beam.

Test 7A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=77
Peak power=107 (106 observed)
Average power=103
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=77
Peak power=124 (123 observed)
Average power=109
power goes down to 77 then up to 124 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Test 7B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=62
Peak power=92
Average power=93
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=62
Peak power=109
Average power=99
power goes down to 65 then up to 112 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Next i'll test resistance to weapon power drain with the Plasma Integrated Warp Core 10% resist to power drain + the cruiser weapons command for 25% lower weapon power cost plus Experimental beam.

Test 8A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=82
Peak power=112 (110 observed)
Average power=106
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=82
Peak power=125 (hit cap)
Average power=111
power goes down to 81 then up to 125 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Test 8B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=67
Peak power=97 (98 observed)
Average power=96
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=67
Peak power=114 (115 observed)
Average power=102
power goes down to 67 then up to 114 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Note that the formula for weapon power cost/drain resistance appears to be the following.

Weapon power drain=(P/(1+WC))*(1-R)
where P=weapon power cost
where WC=weapons command for 25% less weapon power cost
where R=resistance rate % of all power levels

To confirm the math for weapon command here's 2 weapons i tested.
beam array
10/(1+25%)=8 Note this matches the weapon tooltip
dual heavy cannon
12/(1+25%)=9.6 Note this matches the weapon tooltip

With the warp core of 10% and weapons command of 25% reduced cost we now have the following.

beam array=(10/(1+25%))*(1-10%)=7.2 Note the extra 10% resist is not indicated on the weapon tooltip.

For FAW you treat it the same as autofiring except add 2.5 per weapon at the end. So that each beams looks like;

beam array=(10/(1+25%))*(1-10%)+2.5=9.7 It's the only thing i could come up with.

OK so here's the weapons i actually use. 1 kinetic cutting beam, 1 experimental rom plasma beam and 6 rom plasma beams. And my weapon power level. Also i use 1 embassy sci console. Using cruiser weapons command and the 10% resist spire warp core shield->weapons and 1 embassy sci console with +31.6 flow caps. And of course my flow cap skill is maxxed out.

Test 9A autofiring
Weapon power=137
using leech console
Min power=82
Peak power=112
Average power=106
power goes down to 82 then up to 119 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Test 9B Fire at Will
Weapon power=137
using leech console
Min power=67
Peak power=97
Average power=96
power goes down to 67 then up to 97 at a speed based on power transfer rate

Ignoring omega weapon amplifier for a min here i typically hover at the 112 weapon power range just autofiring. As i'm an engineer i can use any EPX ability to increase weapon power. If i use EPTS i gain 10 weapon power and i'll then hover at the 122 weapon power range for autofire and 107 for Fire at Will. Pretty sick actually. Here's a link to my Human Engineer Avenger Beam boat. So far i'm at 25.8k dps during an ISE pug run. No special buffs or consumables are used except a common weapons battery. And FYI i autofire at over 10k dps solo. And i mean i hit spacebar and go make lunch or coffee while doing a foundry farming mission. http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skil...rbeamboat_2920

Now obviously i do use an Experimental Rom Plasma beam. However i do like to run without the Kinetic Cutting beam. Yes i won't get the Omega Amplifier buff. But as i'm an Engineer i have Nadion and EPS to keep weapon power at 125. Plus EPTW and EPTS to help and batteries. I also use the Maco 2pc so it does require a higher then normal power transfer rate. But with the Experimental i don't need it as high as the tests above. I'm at 299%/14.9/sec anyways. So i'm fine there plus weapon power will go up from min at a fairly good rate.

Now you may think that using EPTW or using a weapons battery would keep you from hitting the Min value. That is not the case. All power above 125 is reserved and you will still go down to the Min value but your Peak value is now increased. The exception of course is Nadion and EPS. Both will increase your Min value and Peak value. Of course you can time EPTW or a weapons battery and use it as soon as you hit the min value and it will immediately jump to 125. But the next cycle it will drop to the Min value again.


Conclusions

Get weapon power to 125+ pre buffs, etc
Use warp core with the shield->weapons power mod
Use warp core with resist to power drain

Sorry about the extremely long post. But maybe a few people will read it all. And hopefully benefit by it. Don't take the numbers as being exact as they can be off by up to 3. But it's a very good ballpark to go by.

Last edited by dragonsbite; 03-10-2014 at 03:22 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 2
03-04-2014, 01:32 AM
Thanks, it's what saxfire and many others have been saying for a long time now, good of you to post your tests =)

Another thing to mention is that while EptW may not benefit you in overcap it will benefit your energy weapons by giving you a 10-15% damage boost to them. Similarly leech also may not benefit weapon overcap if you have it high enough already but it can help bring engine, shield and aux power over 75 for the warp core damage buff too. Also don't forget aux power and the nukara T4 passive.

So before someone starts screaming that there's no point using certain things as it doesn't benefit your overcap, sure it doesn't but it increases damage in other areas.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 108
# 3
03-04-2014, 01:47 AM
I find it a little bit unsettling that this seems to suggest that when weapons are done firing they recharge the power at the normal recharge rate, and not instantly, as I thought they were supposed to.. has anyone else done any research on this as well?
Zekkie@h33r0yuy
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 418
# 4
03-04-2014, 01:52 AM
Very good points you made there bpharma. I rely on my leech and 1 emb sci console to get my eng and aux at exactly 75 power. Also my weapons battery gives me that extra 10% damage as well.

I hope people understand what i meant by min and max weapon power levels. As regards power transfer rate and ensuring you don't go below the min value. This should not be a problem at all if you have the cruiser weapons command. And that resist to power drain is the better option warp core for non romulans. However a lot of romulans prefer the dil mine singularity core so that they can get 4 power levels at 75. This may present a problem if there isn't someone there doing the weapons command. And even with that i believe they'd still require points into EPS. How much i don't know. But maxxing it would be best as recovery is quicker.

heero139, ya i don't quite understand it. I was shocked when my weapon power went to zero on some of the tests. Weapon power does recover fully after a cycle. It's the firing during a cycle where recovery can be a problem. Maybe back when they made the changes to base resistance is when this happened. I don't recall it working quite this way a year ago. Or if it did i never noticed it. It's as if weapon power now goes back up to 125 in 1.5 sec or so instead of instantly. However maybe this is a good thing as it makes EPS very useful now. And with our gear and resist and weapon power cost reductions i think we're ok. But people leveling up and still needing gear may want to look at what i posted so they can determine what's best for them.

Last edited by dragonsbite; 03-04-2014 at 02:00 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 108
# 5
03-04-2014, 01:59 AM
I've just noticed something very interesting, and absolutely should be classified as a bug.

The weapons do refund their spent power immediately at the time their fire cycle finishes (for beams, this is 4 seconds after beginning to fire).

However, if your target dies mid-cycle, the weapons stop firing, but the power is refunded at the same time as they would if they had continued firing.

If you select a new target, and start firing at that target before the previous fire cycle's time is over, you drain more power to fire those weapons before the old fire cycle's weapon power is refunded, and the power shifts back up when the old cycle's time ended.


Interestingly, this also means that under FAW, since target selection is random, you will use power more efficiently than when autofiring with no buffs. Hooray for more reasons to use FAW?
Zekkie@h33r0yuy

Last edited by heero139; 03-04-2014 at 02:03 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 418
# 6
03-04-2014, 02:04 AM
Well that's some interesting results there dude. I never even noticed that. Weird

I didn't test FAW, only autofire. FAW since it hits twice per weapon i would assume that each hit uses 1/2 the weapons power. This would mean at most 8 weapons would hit once then .25 sec or whatever later 8 more hits. So recovery would be slightly better. Or does each weapon hit 2 times instantly? Test that while i sleep. lol

Last edited by dragonsbite; 03-04-2014 at 02:11 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,611
# 7
03-04-2014, 01:15 PM
I'll have to re-read your post carefully later, but let me see if I understand so far.

1. The min value is obtained by subtracting the power consumed by your weapons from your current weapon power or 135, whichever is lower. The max value is obtained by subtracting the power consumed by your weapons from your uncapped weapon power.

2. At the beginning of the firing cycle, your weapon power drops to the min value. During the firing cycle, your weapon power increases to the max value at a speed based on your power transfer rate. At the end of the firing cycle, weapon power should return instantly, but there is an observable delay now.

3. The drain resistance granted by the cruiser command "Weapon System Efficiency" works differently from the drain resistance granted by plasma-integrated warp cores.

Some questions:

A. Does the skill "Power Insulators" affect weapon power drain from firing weapons? One wouldn't normally think so, but I'm now suspicious.

B. Plasma-integrated warp cores also grant "+66% to base regeneration rate of all Power Levels". How does this work? Does it work like the skill "Starship Electro-Plasma Systems", or does it use a different mechanic?
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 418
# 8
03-04-2014, 03:34 PM
1) Yes, except the max will be effected by regen rate and regen rate may not be high enough to hit max.

2) Basically yes except the leech will increase it. Also regen rate may not be sufficient to hit max. Also the problem of power regen is during a firing cycle. After a firing cycle is complete there is sufficient time to regen power to cap. So the problem is only during a firing cycle and not between firing cycles.

3) Yes, they use a different equation. And while i'm not 100% sure of the resist% equation, testing showed it to be fairly accurate. Also energy drain resistance would be another equation. All of which would be combined into 1 overall formula.

A) No, power insulators will not effect weapon power drain to increase the min or max value. However it can and does effect countering of drains by abilities used against you by other players and npcs, etc. Although i did completely spec out of this and maybe i should test this to verify.

B) It uses the same mechanic. It's also additive. Base regen is 100%. 99 into EPS gets you an additional 99%, which puts you at 199%. The warp core gets you an additional 66%, which puts you at 265%.


So all my testing was using Autofire. I've since begun testing of Fire At Will. So far testing shows the Min value to be the same. So this means that as it hits 2 times that the weapon power cost is divided by 2. However the max value is drastically effected by regen rate. Here's a quick example of autofiring vs Fire at Will.

Autofiring using 8 beams arrays

copy of test 5
Weapon power=155
Min power=65
Max power=85
With Leech
min power=65
max power=102

Fire at Will using 8 beam arrays

Weapon power=155
Min power=65
Max power=66
With Leech
min power=65
max power=83

See the drastic decrease of the max value. I'll have to test some more and include FAW results in my OP. The results are rather shocking.

Last edited by dragonsbite; 03-04-2014 at 03:47 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,262
# 9
03-04-2014, 04:22 PM
Hrmmm... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtmFEAIMjkc

edit: Er, basically it's a case that I do not see what the OP sees. Basically, it's a case I've never seen what the OP describes. It's one of the reasons that I almost always argue against what sax posted...why I point to the different drain mechanics between Beams and Cannons, etc, etc, etc.

That video was recorded while the forums were down on Tribble with a toon I no longer have on Holodeck, Prophet, a KDF Engineer in a Mogh using 8 beams....AtB, EPtW/EPtS, EPS Manifold Efficiency, Plasmonic Leech, flipping some batts, hitting up EPS Power Transfer, running Nadion, running the Weapon Cruiser Command...at various stages, showing where there's no 135 hidden cap.

"Base" Weapon Power: 124 (possibly rounded up or down to 124)

Using Havelock's PowerCalc, we can take a look at where the various buffs would take that power level. Heck, we can take a look at how we got to the 124 first and move on from there...

Trait: Efficient Captain
Warp Core Efficiency - 6
Warp Core Potential - 6
Engine Performance - 6
Shield Performance - 6
Auxiliary Performance - 0
Weapon Performance - 0
Ship: Mogh/Battle Cruiser
Dyson Combat Engines (+2.5 Aux, Eng, Shields)
Dyson Core (+12.5 Shields) <---curious, eh?
Borg Console (+5 Weapons)
Nukara Console (+5 Shields)
0Point Console (+1.8 All)
Proton Console (+3 Weapon, Engines)

And thus we reach the 124/100, 89/50, 66/25, 44/25 power levels the ship was running.

Firing 8 beams at this point, should give us 124 - 70 = 54. But you're not likely to see that, cause right off the back it's a case of boosting power.

Using EPtS1 will boost Weapon Power to 134. Yep, EPS Manifold...+10 Power. 134 - 70 = 64. Wasn't much of that going on was there?

EPtW1 itself is giving him +25.8 taking it to 159.8. -70 = 89.8...and there's a number (well, 90) that shows up a bit, right?

AtB1's giving anywhere from 2.3 to 18+, which is going to have us in that 90-100 range...that shows up quite a bit, eh?

EPS Power Transfer kicks in another +34, taking us to (no AtB) 193.8. -70 = 123.8, which you see where it's not dropping below 120.

That's without the Leech aspect...

You can watch the power bouncing all over the place as different buffs kick in and wear off...but uh...it doesn't match the OP, eh?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 03-04-2014 at 06:49 PM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,098
# 10
03-04-2014, 05:26 PM
Can I just ask one quick favour? ... Would it be possible to run similar tests using Singularity Cores?

I know the effort you put in is a lot, and I, as many others, are very, very grateful, but as someone who has a Rom toon ... POWER and Power Drain is a very important factor to Romulans.
Please ... Make it so ...!
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