Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 11
03-02-2014, 07:03 AM
Which is why it's better to say X is bad as it's outclassed by Y because of Z.

Example, you can use science abilities to complete anything in PvE and you will be able to do it with optional sand easily. You can even use entirely clickie consoles and do it too but damage completely outclasses it in completion time.

I also think you need to put some things in perspective, when people talk about something being rubbish it depends upon the viewpoint and context in which it is being discussed.

Just because you can make an engineer do damage it doesn't always mean it's the most efficient thing to do in that team make up (course that's PvP and I'll let those people truly discuss that).

Just because you can use science abilities in PvE it doesn't mean using a science ship packed to the rafters with science abilities is the best choice for completing it fast.

Just because 90% of STFs have unshielded targets it doesn't mean torpedoes are the most effective (though I wish they were) at completing it fast.

You can do anything you want in this game but it doesn't mean it's the most efficient thing to do.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,795
# 12
03-02-2014, 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
If I'm not mistaken that's an upgrade of the standard Negh'var boff layout isn't it?

I wasn't complaining about the Gal-X 'change' I was just pointing out how worthless it is.
It was just funny, because I forgot to sleep last night while embroiled in a discussion in the Reboot thread...and thinking about the following:

"No ship is any good or has any value if it has less than LtComm tactical boff seating and 3 tactical consoles"

I disagree...cause it depends.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,995
# 13
03-02-2014, 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It was just funny, because I forgot to sleep last night while embroiled in a discussion in the Reboot thread...and thinking about the following:

"No ship is any good or has any value if it has less than LtComm tactical boff seating and 3 tactical consoles"

I disagree...cause it depends.
LT+Ensign or LTC tac slots are only really needed if you can't build without TT, build without TT and you can run with LT tac without any issues.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,036
# 14
03-02-2014, 08:58 AM
Im always a fan of off the way approaches which is why I used to fly a sci scort that drained Cubes to 0 power (pre borg quasi immunity) among many other strange builds and still do. Right now one of my favorite ships to fly is an Ambassador that focuses on gravity well and EWP for the damage and FBP with 3 doffs and Tholian 3pc set (both actually) for the -resist debuff to boost it.

But their are two big things to keep in mind. First off their is a major difference between effective and optimal even if it is only a .0001% change their can only be one optimal. Secondly pilot skill and content played has a massive role in determining if something is effective or bad.

I swear over half of the arguments on these forums are simply a debate of semantics and not actual ideas or concepts. Like diminishing returns, Technician Doffs, and many other subjects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It was just funny, because I forgot to sleep last night while embroiled in a discussion in the Reboot thread...and thinking about the following:

"No ship is any good or has any value if it has less than LtComm tactical boff seating and 3 tactical consoles"

I disagree...cause it depends.
Actually I would say the proper statement would be 'Any ship to heavily focused in any one of the three professions with boff seating has very little value, science might be the exception' and this is mostly due to the number of cooldown reducing doffs around. With two or three Damage Control Engineers one can get just as much milage out of a single Lt-Cmdr Engineer as they could a Lt-Cmdr+Lt by using EPtS1, RSP 1, EPtW3 without needing duplicate copies.

Last edited by bareel; 03-02-2014 at 09:02 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 15
03-02-2014, 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Actually I would say the proper statement would be 'Any ship to heavily focused in any one of the three professions with boff seating has very little value, science might be the exception' and this is mostly due to the number of cooldown reducing doffs around. With two or three Damage Control Engineers one can get just as much milage out of a single Lt-Cmdr Engineer as they could a Lt-Cmdr+Lt by using EPtS1, RSP 1, EPtW3 without needing duplicate copies.
However you do need to be pretty rich (in game) to get all the cool down reduction doffs you might like.

In the escorts online days one of the reasons they ruled the roost was simply because they could double up on tactical abilities to their hearts content. That and the only cool down reduction doffs were a broken deflector doff, photonics studies doff and damage control engineers as far as I remember. That and aux to battery wasn't a great ability and shared its cool down win more useful abilities.

Hence why I keep saying aux to battery is not the problem when yet another "dem peepol be expotin!!1! Dey FAW dem h4x0rZ!" Thread gets made.

Think about it, which are currently the most "OP" ships people cry about? What's the seating? Yeah.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,795
# 16
03-02-2014, 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
However you do need to be pretty rich (in game) to get all the cool down reduction doffs you might like.

In the escorts online days one of the reasons they ruled the roost was simply because they could double up on tactical abilities to their hearts content. That and the only cool down reduction doffs were a broken deflector doff, photonics studies doff and damage control engineers as far as I remember. That and aux to battery wasn't a great ability and shared its cool down win more useful abilities.

Hence why I keep saying aux to battery is not the problem when yet another "dem peepol be expotin!!1! Dey FAW dem h4x0rZ!" Thread gets made.

Think about it, which are currently the most "OP" ships people cry about? What's the seating? Yeah.
To me, that's a Z thing...where the Z needs to be defined.

Hit up an ISE with 2x Scim, 2x Recluse, and your choice of a Nanite slaughtering ship.

Send a Scim to the outside of each Trans, so they can parse against it without destroying it. The Recluses there to provide the APB stacking from the Weavers and to help out with the Nanites if necessary. Have one Scim AtB and one not.

Watch the parse for the DPS at different intervals...

Who's ahead at 1 minute?
Who's ahead at 2? 3? 5? 10?

So to me, that's just another Z thing...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 17
03-02-2014, 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
To me, that's a Z thing...where the Z needs to be defined.

Hit up an ISE with 2x Scim, 2x Recluse, and your choice of a Nanite slaughtering ship.

Send a Scim to the outside of each Trans, so they can parse against it without destroying it. The Recluses there to provide the APB stacking from the Weavers and to help out with the Nanites if necessary. Have one Scim AtB and one not.

Watch the parse for the DPS at different intervals...

Who's ahead at 1 minute?
Who's ahead at 2? 3? 5? 10?

So to me, that's just another Z thing...
Or get 5 zombie tanks with extends organised properly and just say have at it, the scimitars won't get a kill and the game will still be there in 2 years time when they close the server...

X is bad, use Y as Y gets Z kills.
Y is bad, use X as X gets Z dps.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,460
# 18
03-02-2014, 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
However you do need to be pretty rich (in game) to get all the cool down reduction doffs you might like.

In the escorts online days one of the reasons they ruled the roost was simply because they could double up on tactical abilities to their hearts content. That and the only cool down reduction doffs were a broken deflector doff, photonics studies doff and damage control engineers as far as I remember. That and aux to battery wasn't a great ability and shared its cool down win more useful abilities.

Hence why I keep saying aux to battery is not the problem when yet another "dem peepol be expotin!!1! Dey FAW dem h4x0rZ!" Thread gets made.

Think about it, which are currently the most "OP" ships people cry about? What's the seating? Yeah.
Well, also consider that at the time, when A2B started to be a 'thing' it was still mostly a cruiser/battlecruiser (with the odd-man-out being the Vet ship) build pretty much. The different amount of DOFFs at the time were still very few and far between.

Kinda funny it only really blew up so damn huge because of removing the shared CD with ETPX, and all the eventual hybrid ships and the like that were put into the game.

Plus it isn't even just that escorts could double up on tac powers, but double up on high level tac powers. Like double BO 3s, or APO 1s, etc, compared to a tac cruiser like an Excelsior only getting a single APO or FAW 3, etc, even with A2B it still wasn't as 'clockwork' as a more standard escort where you weren't waiting on your A2B CD to hit it again.

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,472
# 19
03-02-2014, 10:52 AM
OP misses the point.

It has nothing to do with XYZ, it has to do with general vs specific statements. Blanket statements are more likely to be wrong because there tend to be exceptions that aren't covered.

Here's one example OP used:
"Using just that AP360 beam for your beam overload is stupid."
This is actually correct.

It would have been even more correct had it been more specific:
"Using just that AP360 beam for your beam overload on a non-AP cannon boat is stupid."
Additional stupidity makes it more correct.

It would have been incorrect had it been less specific:
"Using that AP360 beam is stupid"
Nothing stupid about the 2 piece AP dmg bonus on beam array faw boat, one of the highest dps fits out there.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,795
# 20
03-02-2014, 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
Or get 5 zombie tanks with extends organised properly and just say have at it, the scimitars won't get a kill and the game will still be there in 2 years time when they close the server...

X is bad, use Y as Y gets Z kills.
Y is bad, use X as X gets Z dps.
All sorts of Z's! It's why I so prefer discussing mechanics, heh.

A 31.9% Tac console is providing 31.9% base damage...as long as it's the right console for the weapon. Nice and simple...none of the well, if this is happening - that's happening - this too - not that - nor this - maybe not that - this, that, and argggghhhh!

It depends.

Heck, think of the following.

"Hi, my name's Adrian and I want to build a ship. What should I fly?"

How many folks will just ramble off the FotM cookie cutter? How many folks will ask are you looking to PvE, PvP, both? What are you looking to do? Do you fly with other folks? And the oodles upon oodles of other questions that should be asked rather than just spouting off some FotM cookie cutter, eh?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
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